A set of genuine questions. Not a trap. Bible quotes needed.

[Dontaskme]

If you talk about completely unrelated thoughts,

I thought my thoughts were related.

But then I guess my thoughts just don't meet with your criteria ... so be it. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life balling my eyes out if that's what you think. I put my ideas forward, take them or leave them, there's no need to cry about it.

.

[Greta]

It was the closest I could find, -1-. I thought that the latter quote attributed to JC spoke of ultimate rather than infinite good. I suspect that the "infinite" part is an extrapolation of the Bible - an invention rather than a reference - like young Earth creation based on adding up the ages of people named in the Bible.

Theoretically it's blasphemous to present one's own views as being Biblically reference but the faithful seem to just cede to the church's authority without question.

That's exactly why I asked these questions. My quest is to show that most faithful attribute qualities to god which are not mentioned in the bible but are either conjectures or else they are plainly figments of imagination, borne out of a drive to show adoration.

You are right. Numerous times I've read interpretations by theists, presented as if in the texts, that were obviously modern ideas.

Sometimes the extrapolations are logical and valid, but usually it's due to the lack of self doubt inherent in the theistic nature. So they start with one speculation that is weakly tested, then they follow that track and quickly accept the next speculation, and then they heap speculations on one another. I was a believer in the supernatural (Buddhist style) as a twentysomething so I am familiar with the dynamic - and also the cure - admission of uncertainty in the great questions.

However, for the devout such logical questioning is often considered to be a crisis of faith, a shortcoming, a fading opportunity to connect deeply with a purported deity. So they build these castles on foundations of sand and, when the castles collapse, they convince each other that they are still standing, thus creating new mythologies which they convince themselves are the only possible logical line that could follow the Bible's text, when the truth is that speculative line is just one of numerous possible other permutations.

[Immanuel Can]

That's exactly why I asked these questions. My quest is to show that most faithful attribute qualities to god which are not mentioned in the bible but are either conjectures or else they are plainly figments of imagination, borne out of a drive to show adoration.

You are right. Numerous times I've read interpretations by theists, presented as if in the texts, that were obviously modern ideas.

Actually, Greta, he's wrong. I could have answered -1-'s question, and corrected his misunderstandings, off the top of my head, and with the very first post. But -1- decided he didn't want to talk to somebody who could show he was wrong. So he's going to keep thrashing.

I've just been waiting to see him declare his real purpose. Originally, he called it "a set of genuine questions. Not a trap." He said he "needed" it. In fact, as he just said above, he was actually just trying to confirm his prejudices.

Classic. Well, I guess he's doomed himself to keep thrashing. More power to him. He's going to be awfully surprised on day, I guess.

[Greta]

That's exactly why I asked these questions. My quest is to show that most faithful attribute qualities to god which are not mentioned in the bible but are either conjectures or else they are plainly figments of imagination, borne out of a drive to show adoration.

You are right. Numerous times I've read interpretations by theists, presented as if in the texts, that were obviously modern ideas.

Actually, Greta, he's wrong. I could have answered -1-'s question, and corrected his misunderstandings, off the top of my head, and with the very first post.

Answering the post rather than criticising would seem a more productive course to take here.

-1- would not have asked the question if he'd not suspected that theists were applying their own spins on things that were not referenced in their texts. If you don't provide the references, then you claim that you could easily quote them is unfounded.

I personally think that people adding to, correcting and expanding on the ancient texts is healthy, as opposed to clinging to the words. Buddhism does this routinely, recognising that knowledge can always be improved upon as societies become ever more experienced.

[Immanuel Can]

Answering the post rather than criticising would seem a more productive course to take here.

No good. As I said, -1- elected to ask me not to talk to him. It seems he doesn't like to find out he's wrong, especially about stuff to do with Christians.

[Serendipper]

- God is infinitely good

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

- God is the greatest

Joshua 3:11 Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan.

- God sees all

Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, watching the evil and the good.

- God only knows, God knows all

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
1 John 3:20 God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

- God is merciful and forgiving

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Daniel 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

- God can be trusted

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

- God loves his children and who precisely are these children

Matthew 18
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 12
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

- God never needed anybody's help

Redundant

- God has existed forever

Deuteronomy 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[Serendipper]

Originally, he called it "a set of genuine questions. Not a trap." He said he "needed" it. In fact, as he just said above, he was actually just trying to confirm his prejudices.

If someone says it's not a trap, it's a trap.

[-1-]

- God is infinitely good

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

- God is the greatest

Joshua 3:11 Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan.

- God sees all

Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, watching the evil and the good.

- God only knows, God knows all

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
1 John 3:20 God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

- God is merciful and forgiving

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Daniel 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

- God can be trusted

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

- God loves his children and who precisely are these children

Matthew 18
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 12
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

- God never needed anybody's help

Redundant

- God has existed forever

Deuteronomy 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is precisely what I was seeking, asking, and looking for.

Thank you, Serendipper! Much appreciated and much obliged.

I like it when someone answers directly and succinctly another's straight question also in a straightforward and unadorned answer.

Thanks, Serendipper.

[-1-]

Incidentally, Serendipper: are the quotes by you the only quotes that answer my requests, or are there more quotes in the bible that answer the same questions? Please don't feel obliged to mention ALL the quotes that answer my concerns if there are very many of them, but then just say "there're many of them"; but if you are certain that there are only a few quotes that are all equally good responses to my request, and these few equally dispel my concerns, then I humbly ask you to give all other quotes as well.

In fact, I'd be willing to pay you for this, if this paying you were possible. If you like, and if you confirm your quotes are comprehensively answering my questions, are not too many, and your quotes are complete (ie. there are no more quotes in the bible that answer my query), then I promise to give $50 to the church or evangelical society you indicate you belong to. That is, name your church and I give to the branch of your church in my city $50 if you promise your quotes are complete, name all possible answers that could be found in the Bible to my questions in the requests, are accurate and are to the point.

If you like, I'll publish in this forum the receipt / certificate number of my donation and the name of the congregation that issued it once it's done.

[Dontaskme]

That's exactly why I asked these questions. My quest is to show that most faithful attribute qualities to god which are not mentioned in the bible but are either conjectures or else they are plainly figments of imagination, borne out of a drive to show adoration.

I want to be proven wrong, I seek to be proven wrong. I seek to be proven wrong by bible scholars showing me the passages where the qualities described are found in the bible.

This is not a trap. I want direct quotes of lines in the bible. Then there are no arguments. If the quotes are not forthcoming, I assume, rightfully, that the qualities attributed are not true, since there is no evidence in the Bible for them to be true.

Assuming the questions in the OP are speculated beliefs, conjectures or else figments of imagined quality attributes assigned by faithful bible scholars to God is true since you have already convinced yourself that they are...Then, why are you asking others to find quotes in relation to your questions, if you already know the quotes relating to your questions do not exist in any bible quote?

Have you looked for the quotes yourself? ...did you make up the questions in the OP already knowing they do not exist except as conjecture?

What a stupid topic. You've just made up some random questions in order to test whether human interpretation of the bible is often falsely misinterpreted. Or the bible authors themselves are deliberately misleading it's readers.

The point is, interpretation of any biblical text or any other sacred literature can take on many many forms of understanding, there is no literal meaning to any WORD, everything including words are made of the same one formless energy, appearing as if this energy is literal and real in and of itself separate from source...of course there are going to be very different interpretations, or translations from different people with different conditioned backgrounds, with different programmed minds according to their unique insight to be able to divulge scared scriptural information.

The only trap here is the belief in corrupted thinking that someone is lying..the thing is, why would SEEKERS OF TRUTH people LIE?...that doesn't make sense.

YOU believe what you want, take what you want, and leave the rest, this is what wise people do ... deliberately lying to deliberately deceive is not what seekers of truth are about...

Yes, it seems the bible is difficult to decipher, yet at the same time only the pure of heart will hear it...that simplicity is the divine wisdom of the pure ONE

People as seekers of truth, simply make up their own minds about what they want to know according to their unique capacity to connect to source energy. Not everyone thinks in exactly the same way as everyone else, you know.

Arguing over our own private unique understanding of source energy .. is such a stupid thing to do, as if there is a someone who has got the right answer to the truth making everyone else obliged to agree with that finding or else prove theirs is the right one..

It doesn't work like that, so your thread is a trap from the off set. It's already a set up.. it's stupid and it's ignorant of what God actually means to the intelligent person.

.


.

[Dontaskme]

Theoretically it's blasphemous to present one's own views as being Biblically reference but the faithful seem to just cede to the church's authority without question.

That statement is just utter ignorance of other peoples innate intelligence of how they come to know God. People have their own minds about how to connect with their original energy source. You seem to have this pre-conceived idea that people just go around believing blindly in what other people are telling them...this is not helpful, it's just an ass u me projection of your own making.

There's no such thing as human authority over God issues. That's the blasphemy ..men of the church are guides, they have no more authority other than their own self made beliefs.

Guides are helpful for other people who choose to seek wisdom and truth, to inquire into their own self knowing, men of the church are not the authors of other peoples self knowing..which is how you implied it.

Also, there is no you to have a view, YOU ARE the view.

So no one is being blasphemous...utterance or action concerning God or sacred things is separation which is an illusion anyway, you are not separate from source energy.

This is the problem with the belief in separate human self, it's a kin to the belief in God that you condemn others for doing, no difference.

The only difference is the one believing in God comes from a whole place.

And the one believing in a separate self comes from a fragmented place...so the fragmented place will be confused believing that God is something existing somewhere else outside of them self. This is delusional thinking.

Whereas the one who comes from the place of wholeness knows God to be within them self inseparable. This is clarity thinking.



.

[Immanuel Can]

Originally, he called it "a set of genuine questions. Not a trap." He said he "needed" it. In fact, as he just said above, he was actually just trying to confirm his prejudices.

If someone says it's not a trap, it's a trap.

Yep. I knew it was.

Nice list of quotations, by the way. I'd have sent along something similar, if not the same.

[Serendipper]

Incidentally, Serendipper: are the quotes by you the only quotes that answer my requests, or are there more quotes in the bible that answer the same questions? Please don't feel obliged to mention ALL the quotes that answer my concerns if there are very many of them, but then just say "there're many of them"; but if you are certain that there are only a few quotes that are all equally good responses to my request, and these few equally dispel my concerns, then I humbly ask you to give all other quotes as well.

I'm guessing there are more, but I'd have to dig for them to find out. Some may not mention the right words, for instance I thought you might object because Jesus said "they are my mothers, brothers" and didn't use the word "children" since there was objection about the alpha and omega quote. I could have quoted "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God", but I thought you might say that a beginning doesn't signify eternity.

Most of the topics are like trivia that I've never taken the time to substantiate until now; I just assumed they were true and focused more on determining nuances, for instance if salvation is possible to all and what to make of predestination, etc.

In fact, I'd be willing to pay you for this, if this paying you were possible. If you like, and if you confirm your quotes are comprehensively answering my questions, are not too many, and your quotes are complete (ie. there are no more quotes in the bible that answer my query), then I promise to give $50 to the church or evangelical society you indicate you belong to. That is, name your church and I give to the branch of your church in my city $50 if you promise your quotes are complete, name all possible answers that could be found in the Bible to my questions in the requests, are accurate and are to the point.

I appreciate that, but I haven't been to a church in 20 yrs I'd rather give money to someone who needs it than a church anyway. Help someone with a rent payment or food or help an animal.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

What is this for? I'll help if it's for a good cause. Why does it have to be exhaustive? I remember researching predestination, predestined, election, elect, elected and every synonym I could think of and still not finding all the allegorical references acquired from just generally reading. And on top of that, Jesus deliberately spoke in parables and thanked God for "concealing from the wise and prudent and revealing unto babes." There really is no way to say all the references have been accounted for.

https://www.biblegateway.com/ is the site I use. Pick a version of the bible: typically KJV and NIV (KJV is my favorite) then type in a word. It's not terribly difficult; just time consuming.

[RustyBert]

OP: If your goal is to convince a true believer that their bible doesn't support their beliefs you're wasting your time. In fact, not unlike trump supporters, the more you point out failures, the harder they cling to their book/god/person in the white house. Con artists like trump and priests (the sly ones at least) know this and use it to their advantage.

[-1-]

OP: If your goal is to convince a true believer that their bible doesn't support their beliefs you're wasting your time. In fact, not unlike trump supporters, the more you point out failures, the harder they cling to their book/god/person in the white house. Con artists like trump and priests (the sly ones at least) know this and use it to their advantage.

I am clear on this. Nobody has ever changed anyone else's point of view on belief by logical arguments.

I have seen people change their basic world view and belief-based philosophies two ways: the state dictated them to change, and thought they themselves did not change, the lack of display of their true beliefs caused their children to believe the opposite to what their parents believed. This I saw happen twice (once I was not there, but know of):

1. When Christianity was in vogue, in Hungary, in the tenth century, the head of the people gave an order to torture to death anyone who uttered old folk tradition tales and / or worshipped any god but the Christian god. People complied, but only their children became true christian believers. The head of the state who gave this order, Geza fejedelem, himself carried on practicing the old faith rituals.

2. When communism was in vogue, in Hungary, it was a huge detriment to career advancement and general happiness to declare one's own religious values. So many people shut up and never prayed and never ever went to church, to preserve their family and their well-being. They remained faithful believers of god; the children became atheists.

Another way of changing fundamental beliefs is by assimilation. I've seen many people change religion because they saw the value of establishing a family and creating an existence in a foreign culture, by seeing and seeking peaceful cooperation and participation. These are the TRUE converts. They convert voluntarily, with much thought given to the conversion, and not superficially.

Another way of changing fundamental beliefs is via rebellion. Whether a generational difference, or a political difference, or simply a desire to be different, these conversions are strong and long-lasting, but can switch off at a moment's notice even for the silliest reasons.

And finally, the bitter switchers, who never would switch otherwise, but due to abuse, physical or mental, perceived or real, they turn away from their belief-communities in disgust. It is more a rebellion against the human environment and treatment received, and not form the faith itself, but the turn-off is final, irreversible, and most times involves rejecting the faith of the community as well. Most humanist groups in North America consist of people like these.

And finally, even more rarely than the previous "finally", some people turn away from religion because they see it as plain silly, riddled with self-contradictions and fervent zealotry that fosters stupidity.

All that I said above, can be played backwards: between any two religions, and between atheism to religiousness, but the "very finally" is a one-way street. The apostates of pissed-off abused people can return to the fold, with renewed sentimental strength; the generation of atheists can via terror be made to make their children religious; the peaceful true conversion can go either way between religions and between religion and atheism; but once one realizes the stupidity of religion, then there is no turning back.

One thing is for sure: I've never seen anyone change their religion or philosophy due to arguments against their own beliefs that they were unable to defend against.