A set of genuine questions. Not a trap. Bible quotes needed.

[-1-]

I appreciate that, but I haven't been to a church in 20 yrs I'd rather give money to someone who needs it than a church anyway. Help someone with a rent payment or food or help an animal.

Serendipper, I feel your deep and great humanity borne out of religionism. I appreciate it, and I feel a certain accord and harmony with you, with your peace- and thoughtful ways. I am an atheist, and I am not going to deny that ever. I live now in a small town, where street preachers and active proselytizers feel comfortable with me, by now, because of god knows what. They don't feel threatened by me, but they respect my logic and my sense of humour with which I approach their approaches. One girl, for instance, sat down beside me on a bench, and she laughed at several things I said, one being, she said, "I pray for all those who are unfortunate to have decided to use drugs," and I simply asked her, "so they are not using drugs now?" and she looked at me, straight, for second or two, and burst out laughing. She could not stand it any more. She left me with the words, that I was fun to talk to, and a much kinder person than most people she approaches.

Another instance: a guy, a street preacher, I approached, and challenged, and in a discussion on another day, he said, "Do you know what happens to your soul when you die?" to which I answered, "no, I don't; but I doubt you can convince me that you know what happens to it after life is over." He looked at me, he was a smart man, and he changed the subject, and now we have coffee occasionally at the local market together, with normal, everyday chit-chat, and he once in a while switches to sermon-preaching mode, and I switch him out of it with just a word or two.

I think you, serendipper, and I, could form a great friendship if we were to meet in real life.

In response to your kind rejection of payment for religious services rendered: I will get a bicycle to a guy here in the building (rent-geared-to-income for seniors) where I live, who is able to ride, will use it, and has had a rough life, still going on. Anyone who smokes cigarettes these days or drinks a few brewskies, needs a job beside a pension, because pensions are low and addictions, even legal ones, are horribly expensive. And he smokes like a chimney, and drinks like a fish, and swears a lot. I will give him a reasonably good used bike.

[Serendipper]

I appreciate that, but I haven't been to a church in 20 yrs I'd rather give money to someone who needs it than a church anyway. Help someone with a rent payment or food or help an animal.

Serendipper, I feel your deep and great humanity borne out of religionism.

Thanks but I don't think it came from religionism but is somehow innate to all of us who have empathy while religion is just an analogy I can use to convey information.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

To think that there are beings out there suffering causes me to suffer, so it's not a righteous motivation, but seeking to eliminate my own suffering.

What is good? How do we objectively define good? $50 to me that I'll piss away and soon forget or to a church that will waste it on new carpet or a bicycle to an old man that betters the world that I live in: which is better? So now you'll be philanthropic and the old man will pass it on as well and so it will cascade through the universe and be infinitely more valuable to me than $50.

I appreciate it, and I feel a certain accord and harmony with you, with your peace- and thoughtful ways. I am an atheist, and I am not going to deny that ever.

I'm not sure how to define myself.

I live now in a small town, where street preachers and active proselytizers feel comfortable with me, by now, because of god knows what. They don't feel threatened by me, but they respect my logic and my sense of humour with which I approach their approaches.

Street preachers are probably the most authentic Christians you'll find.

Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Show me a Christian who has sold all that he owns, given it to the poor and followed Jesus. They seem more worried about fantastic buildings and sunday attire.

Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 23
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Matthew 7
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The street preachers probably like you because you're genuine. The only innocent motivation is fun/enjoyment because if you're not doing something that you enjoy, then you're doing something that you can brag about; you're accomplishing something; working towards a goal of improvement.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself because if there were, you could boast about it. "I'm better than you because I do these good works." "I deserve to go to heaven because I endeavor to keep the law." "I believe the right doctrine so I'm better than you or have entitlement to heaven." Arrogance, conceit, self-righteousness... that is the sin.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Children just want to do what they want to do and aren't interested in crusades of goodness.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not about suddenly becoming aware that good and evil exists, but in (arrogantly) presuming we could tell the difference because as soon as you think you know what is good, you'll go on a crusade in support of it and fight against evil, which is evil, if anything is.

I shouldn't need to tell you, an atheist, the evils of the church crusades

One girl, for instance, sat down beside me on a bench, and she laughed at several things I said, one being, she said, "I pray for all those who are unfortunate to have decided to use drugs," and I simply asked her, "so they are not using drugs now?" and she looked at me, straight, for second or two, and burst out laughing. She could not stand it any more. She left me with the words, that I was fun to talk to, and a much kinder person than most people she approaches.

Why apparent evil exists is a tough problem for theists to handle. One theory goes that if God corrected every evil, then there would be no freewill. Another is that God is still observing the Sabbath after his 6 days of work. Another is that if God were to stop one evil, then he would have to intervene at every foot that was about step on a fly, so he takes a hands-off approach until the harvest day.

Another instance: a guy, a street preacher, I approached, and challenged, and in a discussion on another day, he said, "Do you know what happens to your soul when you die?" to which I answered, "no, I don't; but I doubt you can convince me that you know what happens to it after life is over." He looked at me, he was a smart man, and he changed the subject, and now we have coffee occasionally at the local market together, with normal, everyday chit-chat, and he once in a while switches to sermon-preaching mode, and I switch him out of it with just a word or two.

How do we know we have souls? Do animals have souls? Do some people not have souls? How does the soul control the body?

Soul is supposed to body + spirit (breath of God, lifeforce).

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

When the body dies, the soul doesn't exist, but the theory goes that on the judgment day, all souls will be resurrected with new bodies, then the followers of Jesus will bypass the judgment while the rest stand and perish with the earth. Then a new earth is created void of evil.

I think you, serendipper, and I, could form a great friendship if we were to meet in real life.

Yeah, I could always use a good friend.

In response to your kind rejection of payment for religious services rendered: I will get a bicycle to a guy here in the building (rent-geared-to-income for seniors) where I live, who is able to ride, will use it, and has had a rough life, still going on. Anyone who smokes cigarettes these days or drinks a few brewskies, needs a job beside a pension, because pensions are low and addictions, even legal ones, are horribly expensive. And he smokes like a chimney, and drinks like a fish, and swears a lot. I will give him a reasonably good used bike.

Try to talk him into getting some sunlight. He doesn't sound like he has long to live in that condition.

I would say: if you see a need, fill it; not because you're trying to do good, but because you're doing what you're motivated to do. That's being genuine.

[-1-]

Following is a mish-mash of your replies intervowen with my additional comments to them.


James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Patircians 7, Plebeuses, 22: "It is easy to do the right thing. The hard thing is knowing what the right thing is."

I'm not sure how to define myself.

Plato: 32, Aristotle: 12 "The unexamined life is worthless. Garbage. Shit. Plain puke."

Street preachers are probably the most authentic Christians you'll find. They are the least likely to be corrupted. Although by-and-large they are extremists and have an agenda that is sacrilegious by all other Christian believers.

Show me a Christian who has sold all that he owns, given it to the poor and followed Jesus. They seem more worried about fantastic buildings and sunday attire.

Sorry, but it is impossible to find a rich man who has given away all he has had to the poor. Because the moment he does, some rich bloke comes around the next corner and gives this new-poor all he has, so there he is, totally engulfed in wealth again. This is a vicious circle, but hey, it keeps the economy healthy.


The street preachers probably like you because you're genuine. The only innocent motivation is fun/enjoyment because if you're not doing something that you enjoy, then you're doing something that you can brag about; you're accomplishing something; working towards a goal of improvement.

The pleasure principle, glorified. Your words equally apply to the street preachers, as you have noted previously. You are consistent --

Debounaiverantende: 21, Milton: 67, "Verily I say unto you: Do not sway your tongue in all different directions, for the unrighteous will talk you 'till you are blue in the face or to death, which ever cometh sooner."


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself because if there were, you could boast about it.

This of course necessitates the only logical conclusion, that Jesus will go to hell. (He is a human; only He can save Himself, as a god saving a human; but doing anything to save the self is impossible; therefore Jesus can't save Himself; therefore He will never sit in the right side of Himself in Heaven.)

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In other words: live in the present Be happy, don't worry. Forget about all your troubles, skills, responsibilities. Be retarded, for your age, have an extremely low IQ, and surely you will qualify to ascend on the stairway to heaven. If you are in any way different from this normative quality, by exercising your critical analysis skills, then you are a lost cause anyway, for the purposes of Christianity, anyway.

I shouldn't need to tell you, an atheist, the evils of the church crusades -- it was only an attempt to open up free trade between India for its spices and Europe. The Muslims were in the way, taxing every shipment to death. Whichever came first.


Why apparent evil exists is a tough problem for theists to handle. One theory goes that if God corrected every evil, then there would be no freewill. Another is that God is still observing the Sabbath after his 6 days of work. Another is that if God were to stop one evil, then he would have to intervene at every foot that was about step on a fly, so he takes a hands-off approach until the harvest day.

There are other theories plentiful enough to explain the same thing. Maybe the evil deeds prevented bigger evil. Maybe death by evil is a short-cut to salvation. Maybe suffering is not evil, but good. (This is not impossible.) Maybe evil is goodness fighting evil, having lost its moral GPS. (The road to hell are paved with good intentions.) Why god allows evil? Because evil is good. The best thing that happened to Christian mankind was the crucifixion of their Adonai. For without it, there would be absolutely no way to get rid of the original sin. ETC.

How do we know we have souls? Do animals have souls? Do some people not have souls? How does the soul control the body?

Tough questions. I go with the mainline atheist philosophy: soul is a self-consciousness created by evolutionary changes, and possessing a soul is an evolutionary advantage. In other words, soul is not everlasting, and it is connected to the body via emotions, values, morals, and a decision-making capacity, which are mostly brain functions, but some reside in the gut, some in the heart.

Soul is supposed to body + spirit (breath of God, lifeforce).

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

He sure as hell was not going to suck on his nostrils. The only possible alternative, once his lips were sealed on Adam's nostrils, was to blow.

Yeah, I could always use a good friend.

Art thou also a high-functioning autist? My theory is that all great philosophers have been, and were, and that is the main reason women are phewer in numbers among philosophers: an overwhelming majority of autists are males. As such, I am no longer tormented by the conundrum why I never once in my long life have been able to develop a true friendship with anyone. In fact, despite my obvious diagnoses being true and documented, many psychiatrists screamed at me for not conforming to the thought processes and verbal expressions of normative thoughts and feelings of the mad; they felt at a loss for not being able to relate to me. They were pissed off for I spake not like a human. (No, I did not use neologisms. my thoughts and expressing them never suffered from incomprehension by others. I really don't know what they were protesting was missing -- if I knew that, then they would't be protesting, and I wouldn't be friendless like a salamander, or some sodium chloride.)

I would say: if you see a need, fill it; if you don't see a need, create one and fill it; and if you see a woman, remember to ask yourself: is the sum of a woman better than her whole? (The last bit in this, original by Paul Spenser.)

[Greta]

Theoretically it's blasphemous to present one's own views as being Biblically reference but the faithful seem to just cede to the church's authority without question.

That statement is just utter ignorance of other peoples innate intelligence of how they come to know God. People have their own minds about how to connect with their original energy source. You seem to have this pre-conceived idea that people just go around believing blindly in what other people are telling them...this is not helpful, it's just an ass u me projection of your own making.

You have, as usual, completely misinterpreted my comments by pulling one statement out of context and ignoring all qualifiers elsewhere. Simply dumb.

I won't waste another moment on you.

[Greta]

Answering the post rather than criticising would seem a more productive course to take here.

No good. As I said, -1- elected to ask me not to talk to him.

Yes, it can get like that at times ↑

Still, it seems that Serendipper found much better quotes than mine anyway, so it all worked out.

[Serendipper]

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Patircians 7, Plebeuses, 22: "It is easy to do the right thing. The hard thing is knowing what the right thing is."

Yup but IF you know it....

I'm not sure how to define myself.

Plato: 32, Aristotle: 12 "The unexamined life is worthless. Garbage. Shit. Plain puke."

"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." Ernest Hemingway

Sorry, but it is impossible to find a rich man who has given away all he has had to the poor. Because the moment he does, some rich bloke comes around the next corner and gives this new-poor all he has, so there he is, totally engulfed in wealth again. This is a vicious circle, but hey, it keeps the economy healthy.

That's funny but not realistic

Debounaiverantende: 21, Milton: 67, "Verily I say unto you: Do not sway your tongue in all different directions, for the unrighteous will talk you 'till you are blue in the face or to death, which ever cometh sooner."

"I hate being around alcoholics because they're either telling you how much they love you or how much they hate you. And those are the two statements that scare me the most." Jerry Seinfeld

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself because if there were, you could boast about it.

This of course necessitates the only logical conclusion, that Jesus will go to hell. (He is a human; only He can save Himself, as a god saving a human; but doing anything to save the self is impossible; therefore Jesus can't save Himself; therefore He will never sit in the right side of Himself in Heaven.)

He was never in danger of hell so there was no reason to save himself. You're only in danger if you try to save yourself.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In other words: live in the present Be happy, don't worry. Forget about all your troubles, skills, responsibilities. Be retarded, for your age, have an extremely low IQ, and surely you will qualify to ascend on the stairway to heaven. If you are in any way different from this normative quality, by exercising your critical analysis skills, then you are a lost cause anyway, for the purposes of Christianity, anyway.

If that is what a child would want to do. Me, I played with legos and liked learning. I didn't try to improve myself until older. Christianity, much like every religion, is perverted over time.

I shouldn't need to tell you, an atheist, the evils of the church crusades -- it was only an attempt to open up free trade between India for its spices and Europe. The Muslims were in the way, taxing every shipment to death. Whichever came first.

Yep, seems innocent enough lol

Why apparent evil exists is a tough problem for theists to handle. One theory goes that if God corrected every evil, then there would be no freewill. Another is that God is still observing the Sabbath after his 6 days of work. Another is that if God were to stop one evil, then he would have to intervene at every foot that was about step on a fly, so he takes a hands-off approach until the harvest day.

There are other theories plentiful enough to explain the same thing. Maybe the evil deeds prevented bigger evil. Maybe death by evil is a short-cut to salvation. Maybe suffering is not evil, but good. (This is not impossible.) Maybe evil is goodness fighting evil, having lost its moral GPS. (The road to hell are paved with good intentions.) Why god allows evil? Because evil is good. The best thing that happened to Christian mankind was the crucifixion of their Adonai. For without it, there would be absolutely no way to get rid of the original sin. ETC.

There is much to be said of becoming a martyr. "A good death is its own reward." Faora

I don't believe Jesus' death was required, but inevitable.

Yeah, I could always use a good friend.

Art thou also a high-functioning autist?

I have been accused of being autistic a couple times, but honestly I think I'm just tired and burned out from holding down 4 philosophy forums the last 4 months, so I feel like I'm talking robotically and defaulting to the most simplistic prose. I may be mildly autistic by virtue of being a normal male (Extreme male brain theory of autism), but my main claim to fame is OCD.

My theory is that all great philosophers have been, and were, and that is the main reason women are phewer in numbers among philosophers: an overwhelming majority of autists are males.

Maybe empathetic acumen doesn't confer benefit to philosophical progress.

As such, I am no longer tormented by the conundrum why I never once in my long life have been able to develop a true friendship with anyone.

Probably less about you and more about them. Hard to find good people.

In fact, despite my obvious diagnoses being true and documented, many psychiatrists screamed at me for not conforming to the thought processes and verbal expressions of normative thoughts and feelings of the mad; they felt at a loss for not being able to relate to me.

They can't relate to you because you are not mad? That says a lot about psychiatry.

They were pissed off for I spake not like a human. (No, I did not use neologisms. my thoughts and expressing them never suffered from incomprehension by others. I really don't know what they were protesting was missing -- if I knew that, then they would't be protesting, and I wouldn't be friendless like a salamander, or some sodium chloride.)

Were they women?

I would say: if you see a need, fill it; if you don't see a need, create one and fill it; and if you see a woman, remember to ask yourself: is the sum of a woman better than her whole? (The last bit in this, original by Paul Spenser.)

I'd say it depended upon her holiness.

[Dontaskme]

You have, as usual, completely misinterpreted my comments by pulling one statement out of context and ignoring all qualifiers elsewhere. Simply dumb.

I won't waste another moment on you.

You have, as usual, completely misinterpreted my comments by pulling one statement out of context and ignoring all qualifiers elsewhere. Simply dumb.

I won't waste another moment on you.

[Dontaskme]

Nobody has ever changed anyone else's point of view on belief by logical arguments.

Ultimately, people are changing their views and beliefs all the time, we are not the same person from moment to moment. No other one ever changed a persons point of view. We are only ever resonating with our own knowledge. Knowledge has no copyright.

Thoughts change, but the mind is one mind, ever unchanging.

.

[-1-]

Nobody has ever changed anyone else's point of view on belief by logical arguments.

Ultimately, people are changing their views and beliefs all the time, we are not the same person from moment to moment. No other one ever changed a persons point of view. We are only ever resonating with our own knowledge. Knowledge has no copyright.

Thoughts change, but the mind is one mind, ever unchanging.

.

Maybe you are using an equivocation? I used belief in the religious sense, you are using belief perhaps in some other sense? After all, we all act on belief, there is hardly anything knowable for sure by us.

I meant to say that I never seen a theist turn to be an atheist and vice versa, under the weight of arguments. My original expression was ambiguous, I admit. Your criticism is valid, before the clarification.

[-1-]

(Whatever I don't allude to in your response, is understood as agreed.)

"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." Ernest Hemingway

An interval of a feeling of elation of happiness occurs when one's rewards exceed expectations. I guess intelligent people have higher expectations of themselves and of others around them, hence they are bitter.

(Jesus) was never in danger of hell so there was no reason to save himself. You're only in danger if you try to save yourself.
That's a novel but true way of looking at the situation.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In other words: live in the present Be happy, don't worry. Forget about all your troubles, skills, responsibilities. Be retarded, for your age, have an extremely low IQ, and surely you will qualify to ascend on the stairway to heaven. If you are in any way different from this normative quality, by exercising your critical analysis skills, then you are a lost cause anyway, for the purposes of Christianity, anyway.

If that is what a child would want to do. Me, I played with legos and liked learning. I didn't try to improve myself until older. Christianity, much like every religion, is perverted over time.
NO, that is not what a child wants to do; that is what a child is. "Become as little children", not "do as little children". Children are different from adults, and I only pointed out the most obvious to the superficial observer how they are different. But adults must be like children, therefore be irresponsible, etc., if they want to go to heaven. And that is the word of our Lord, amen.

As such, I am no longer tormented by the conundrum why I never once in my long life have been able to develop a true friendship with anyone.

Probably less about you and more about them. Hard to find good people.

I think it's about how I and humans relate. Not goodness or badness. I find myself less and less able to tell the difference between good and bad... for evil and goodness is a human quality as seen from a point of view, and you can always switch these qualities if you switch points of view.


Were (the psychiatrists) women?
Some were, some were not. Mainly men.

[Serendipper]

(Whatever I don't allude to in your response, is understood as agreed.)

"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." Ernest Hemingway

An interval of a feeling of elation of happiness occurs when one's rewards exceed expectations. I guess intelligent people have higher expectations of themselves and of others around them, hence they are bitter.

There is truth to that, but if said intelligentsia expects to be included within the herd, they will be let down

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In other words: live in the present Be happy, don't worry. Forget about all your troubles, skills, responsibilities. Be retarded, for your age, have an extremely low IQ, and surely you will qualify to ascend on the stairway to heaven. If you are in any way different from this normative quality, by exercising your critical analysis skills, then you are a lost cause anyway, for the purposes of Christianity, anyway.

If that is what a child would want to do. Me, I played with legos and liked learning. I didn't try to improve myself until older. Christianity, much like every religion, is perverted over time.
NO, that is not what a child wants to do; that is what a child is. "Become as little children", not "do as little children". Children are different from adults, and I only pointed out the most obvious to the superficial observer how they are different. But adults must be like children, therefore be irresponsible, etc., if they want to go to heaven. And that is the word of our Lord, amen.

No need to meddle with the differences between "is" and "as" since I'll concede that "irresponsible" is the way to heaven because its opposite: responsibility, assumes one knows what is good and how to improve and therefore could brag, boast, and be arrogant and entitled to admission into heaven. I have been successfully arguing for a few months now that the only innocent motivation is "fun" and it's true from the perspective of: christianity, buddhism, hinduism, and logic.

As such, I am no longer tormented by the conundrum why I never once in my long life have been able to develop a true friendship with anyone.

Probably less about you and more about them. Hard to find good people.

I think it's about how I and humans relate. Not goodness or badness. I find myself less and less able to tell the difference between good and bad... for evil and goodness is a human quality as seen from a point of view, and you can always switch these qualities if you switch points of view.

Well, good and bad have meaning in relation to the goal of having friends. In other words, not taking a bath is probably bad for friendship, but not objectively bad.

What I meant by "good people" is those who: keep their word, do not steal, and generally hold themselves to high standards integrity without also becoming judgmental because that is what it takes to have a good friendship. Otherwise it's a sinking-ship.

The value of people is low in this day and age of technology, so why struggle to maintain integrity if you already have 700 friends on facebook?

Were (the psychiatrists) women?
Some were, some were not. Mainly men.

Either way, probably not too smart https://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estim ... ege-major/

[Walker]

nothing since last week sad.

this thread deserves more.

oh well ;-/.

Sorry gaffo.

The thread strikes me as using the bible for a scholarly approach to understanding concepts, rather than for referencing life as I know it.

The way it happens for me, and maybe others, is that events in life cause thoughts that reference memory, without intent to search memory.

For instance, seeing a demonstrator against free speech in Berkeley commit violent acts in some sort of non-intellectual performance, complete with audience and photographers, might cause a spontaneous reference to the Biblical verse that mentions, turn the other cheek.

It also makes me wonder when freedom of speech began to mean freedom to commit violent and oppressive acts. Perhaps the thinking goes that if the authorities condone the actions, then they have a higher meaning for society.

Come to think of it, I guess we’re all supposed to infer from their actions that they are demonstrating something other than criminality.

Then, to be accurate I might look up the verse if I’m communicating the thought to someone, like someone here on the forum. Reading the actual verse in context deepens understanding, largely because the exact wording is thought provoking, and I know for sure that I’m not interjecting my own words for interpretation.

Invariably, the eyes will stray to another passage and spontaneous contemplation will ensue, which is understandable considering all the wisdom packed into the pages.

[Dontaskme]

Maybe you are using an equivocation? I used belief in the religious sense, you are using belief perhaps in some other sense? After all, we all act on belief, there is hardly anything knowable for sure by us.

I meant to say that I never seen a theist turn to be an atheist and vice versa, under the weight of arguments. My original expression was ambiguous, I admit. Your criticism is valid, before the clarification.

As for anything being knowable. Known is a drop, Unknown is an Ocean.

Most true seekers come from an intelligence that knows labels such as ''theist'' , or ''atheist'' ..even the word 'religion' or 'spirituality' or 'God' and all this ''new age BS'' are all just appearances...of the one ocean of possibility.

Intelligent people have a tendency to look further beyond the label of surface appearances,aka (beliefs)...they tend to go straight for clarity, so they look deeper into their own selves, they go inward rather than allow themselves to be indoctrinated by the outward beliefs of the myriad of conflicting denominations of religious authority.

Genuine seekers look beyond the appearances to that which lies behind the observer. They want to make direct contact with their true self, which is not found in churches or from those BS spiritual retreats offering instant enlightenment.

Intelligent people go within, in the quest to return to true self that the ancients also talked about. Spirituality isn't about getting you closer to God, it's about removing God from the picture.

The beginning of wisdom is to look to that which lies behind the observer, and to be able to come into alignment with source through direct experience, and not get too bogged down with the existentialism part of self, but to get to ''know thyself'' the true self.


The path to true self, is not a pink and fluffy path, rather it's the road less travelled, it's the narrow path that Jesus talked about...when he said ''it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God''

The truth never denied the seeker. The seeker denied the truth.
It's so easy to get indoctrinated into the modern narrative. Truth is eternal ..the ancients knew it, and the great ancient systems portray a style of philosophy and spirituality far different from the modern half truths of egoic love and light, crystal clutching spiritual proclaimer.

So forget about labels. They only serve to cloud the clarity that is here right now shining brilliantly. No proof required.


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[Nick_A]

DaM

Intelligent people have a tendency to look further beyond the label of surface appearances,aka (beliefs)...they tend to go straight for clarity, so they look deeper into their own selves, they go inward rather than allow themselves to be indoctrinated by the outward beliefs of the myriad of conflicting denominations of religious authority.

Yes, but how is it done? The human organism is a mini universe. It is structured on the same laws as our great universe. Consequently we can verify of lot of what frustrates scientific explanations of our universe by becoming able to “know thyself” and distinguish objective truths from fantasy. What do you believe is necessary for the conscious verification of what we are?

Genuine seekers look beyond the appearances to that which lies behind the observer. They want to make direct contact with their true self, which is not found in churches or from those BS spiritual retreats offering instant enlightenment.

A good question. What IYO is our true self?

The beginning of wisdom is to look to that which lies behind the observer, and to be able to come into alignment with source through direct experience, and not get too bogged down with the existentialism part of self, but to get to ''know thyself'' the true self.

I once asked you if you would like to have a discussion on Plato’s chariot. The horses represent the forces of our emotional nature. You seem intent on following the path of the white horse and it circles closely towards the world of forms. However our being also includes the black horse. I submit that the primary benefit of efforts to “know thyself” is to consciously experience the black horse. We have to understand its ways and why it is so dominant. Techniques allowing such understanding is real religion. If we don’t understand what pins the human psych to the world enchanted with all the attractions of the black horse we are limited to escapism and fantasy. The charioteer needs two healthy horses in order “to be” as was intended in creation.

[Walker]

“Genuine seekers look beyond the appearances to that which lies behind the observer. They want to make direct contact with their true self, which is not found in churches or from those BS spiritual retreats offering instant enlightenment.”

Are you referencing a bad experience, or are you speaking about observation of others?

I went to one only once, although there was no talk of enlightenment. I simply went to get verification from a great teacher, for what had happened to me, because no one had adequate answers. I knew from their answers that they did not know what I knew. I had to go pretty far as he travels a lot around the world and his physical presence is brief and scarce for my means. So, I found the teacher and all my questions were answered, mostly in silence. Miracles happened afterwards. One involved vision, for a time my myopia was gone. For some time afterwards, I received teachings in dreams that were not like ordinary dreams in their vividness and clarity. I've learned teachings in his tradition of knowledge that explained what happened to me, but I'm not a teacher or representative. It's why there's no mention of specifics.

I think maybe you need no verification.

I’ve gathered that you’re satisfied with what you know.