New Proof of the Existence of God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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wisdomlover
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New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by wisdomlover » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:06 pm

All the classic proofs of the existence of god are old and worn out -- the first cause argument, the argument from design, the ontological argument, etc. They have been refuted so many times, it's like beating a dead horse to think about them.

Sitting there on his throne, dismayed that fewer and fewer people believe I him, god thinks it's time for people to ponder a fresh new proof. Why he chose to reveal it to me, I don't know. He works in mysterious ways. Here it is:

Premise #1: Life was created from a completely random process.
Premise #2: No finite being can create anything that is completely random.
Therefore: Life was created by an infinite being.


Both premises call for some discussion, but rather than anticipate what people might need more information about, I'll just leave it simple for now and see if there's a response.

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Dontaskme
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:39 am

That which lives never dies. And that which dies never lives.

Between now and now there is no between = Proof that all is Oneness...which is just another concept for God.

To speak of anything existing requires existence to be prior to knowing. So all knowing is an appearance of what is and always has to be.

That which is, is without cause ...That which seems to be, is caused.

That which is causeless, is the cause of all things... That seem to be.

This is power indeed.

This is.

THIS IS IT.

Irrefutable and immutable immortal.

.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by FlashDangerpants » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:05 pm

wisdomlover wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:06 pm
Premise #1: Life was created from a completely random process.
Premise #2: No finite being can create anything that is completely random.
Therefore: Life was created by an infinite being.
Your argument takes the form of A or B (or an unstated C); not A, therefore B. Both premises can be true without the conclusion being true because you haven't considered life not being created by any singular being at all. So we can skip the question of whether the premises are true (because the 'completely random' bit is weak too) because the argument as it stands isn't valid.

you could make it valid with an additional premise I suppose. but It has to be either:
Premise #3: Life was created by a being (which makes the argument viciously circular) or...
Premise #3: All completely random processes are beings (which isn't very realistic)

wisdomlover
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by wisdomlover » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:08 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:05 pm
wisdomlover wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:06 pm
Premise #1: Life was created from a completely random process.
Premise #2: No finite being can create anything that is completely random.
Therefore: Life was created by an infinite being.
Your argument takes the form of A or B (or an unstated C); not A, therefore B. Both premises can be true without the conclusion being true because you haven't considered life not being created by any singular being at all. So we can skip the question of whether the premises are true (because the 'completely random' bit is weak too) because the argument as it stands isn't valid.

you could make it valid with an additional premise I suppose. but It has to be either:
Premise #3: Life was created by a being (which makes the argument viciously circular) or...
Premise #3: All completely random processes are beings (which isn't very realistic)

wisdomlover
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by wisdomlover » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:11 pm

Wow god seems to be a terrible logician.
Last edited by wisdomlover on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

wisdomlover
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by wisdomlover » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:12 pm

wisdomlover wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:08 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:05 pm
wisdomlover wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:06 pm
Premise #1: Life was created from a completely random process.
Premise #2: No finite being can create anything that is completely random.
Therefore: Life was created by an infinite being.
Your argument takes the form of A or B (or an unstated C); not A, therefore B. Both premises can be true without the conclusion being true because you haven't considered life not being created by any singular being at all. So we can skip the question of whether the premises are true (because the 'completely random' bit is weak too) because the argument as it stands isn't valid.

you could make it valid with an additional premise I suppose. but It has to be either:
Premise #3: Life was created by a being (which makes the argument viciously circular) or...
Premise #3: All completely random processes are beings (which isn't very realistic)

FlashDangerpants
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by FlashDangerpants » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:19 pm

He works in mysterious ways right? Maybe that's the only way he knows how to go.

wisdomlover
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by wisdomlover » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:01 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:05 pm
So we can skip the question of whether the premises are true (because the 'completely random' bit is weak too) because the argument as it stands isn't valid.
I use the term "completely random" because so many things that are commonly called "random" are not really random at all, just random-like enough for practical purposes. Two examples:

- coin tosses
- "random-number"-generating computer programs like the one that comes with Excel.

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Dontaskme
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:16 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:19 pm
He works in mysterious ways right? Maybe that's the only way he knows how to go.
God is a mystery even to God.

Trying to figure out the mystery is like the contents of consciousness looking for consciousness. Quite insane...divinely so.

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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by Necromancer » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:17 pm

wisdomlover wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:06 pm
All the classic proofs of the existence of god are old and worn out -- the first cause argument, the argument from design, the ontological argument, etc. They have been refuted so many times, it's like beating a dead horse to think about them.

Sitting there on his throne, dismayed that fewer and fewer people believe I him, god thinks it's time for people to ponder a fresh new proof. Why he chose to reveal it to me, I don't know. He works in mysterious ways. Here it is:

Premise #1: Life was created from a completely random process.
Premise #2: No finite being can create anything that is completely random.
Therefore: Life was created by an infinite being.


Both premises call for some discussion, but rather than anticipate what people might need more information about, I'll just leave it simple for now and see if there's a response.
Well done! Nice to have you around. :D

wisdomlover
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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by wisdomlover » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:11 pm

FlashDangerpants -- Sorry I screwed up your post. Whatever I did, it was a mistake.

Here is a new formulation of the argument. See what you think.

r includes l
no n is r
l is -n

where:
l = life arises
r = random event
n = event that occurs in the natural world

It is easier to see as a Venn diagram, but I can't figure out how to get the picture I made into here.
Picture this I your mind:
r is a big circle. n is another big circle with no contact. l is a smaller circle inside r.

The upshot is that life arose from some event(s) not in the natural world.

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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by Science Fan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:30 pm

The probability that we exist due to the desires of an all-powerful God has to be less than the probability we exist solely through natural processes. This is because the probability for something is the number of ways for a successful outcome, divided by the number of all possible outcomes. So, let's assume the probability of us existing is 1 divided by some large number, N, where N are all of the natural possible outcomes, from the one where we exist as we do now, to those in which we do not exist at all. Now, no matter how small that probability is, it still is larger than the probability we came into existence through an all-powerful God. This is because the denominator in such an event would have to be infinite. This is because an all-powerful God can presumably do an infinite variety of things, where creating us is simply one possibility among an infinite number of possibilities. This means the probability for us existing due to an all-powerful God is 0. The limit of 1/N as N approaches infinity is 0, and that's what we have for anyone claiming we exist due to the decision of an all-powerful God.

The math tells us it is more rational to believe we exist due to solely natural causes as opposed to supernatural ones involving an all-powerful God.

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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by attofishpi » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:30 pm

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:30 pm
The probability that we exist due to the desires of an all-powerful God has to be less than the probability we exist solely through natural processes. This is because the probability for something is the number of ways for a successful outcome, divided by the number of all possible outcomes. So, let's assume the probability of us existing is 1 divided by some large number, N, where N are all of the natural possible outcomes, from the one where we exist as we do now, to those in which we do not exist at all. Now, no matter how small that probability is, it still is larger than the probability we came into existence through an all-powerful God. This is because the denominator in such an event would have to be infinite. This is because an all-powerful God can presumably do an infinite variety of things, where creating us is simply one possibility among an infinite number of possibilities. This means the probability for us existing due to an all-powerful God is 0. The limit of 1/N as N approaches infinity is 0, and that's what we have for anyone claiming we exist due to the decision of an all-powerful God.

The math tells us it is more rational to believe we exist due to solely natural causes as opposed to supernatural ones involving an all-powerful God.
What is supernatural?

What if God/'God' is a natural part of the universe, and we and our reality are a natural evolution of its existence, how does the math go now?

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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by Science Fan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:25 pm

Atto: In such a case, God is wiped out of existence and replaced with nature itself, so nothing about the math would change. The math specifically referenced those who claim a God exists that is all-powerful and can do anything. The probability of our existence being due to such a God is 0.

I just get tired of people claiming that our existence must be dependent on some all-powerful God, when the math tells us that this simply isn't so. If people learned how to think more like mathematicians, we could rid the world of such childish claims and move on from there to something more important.

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Re: New Proof of the Existence of God

Post by Necromancer » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:22 pm

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:25 pm
Atto: In such a case, God is wiped out of existence and replaced with nature itself, so nothing about the math would change. The math specifically referenced those who claim a God exists that is all-powerful and can do anything. The probability of our existence being due to such a God is 0.

I just get tired of people claiming that our existence must be dependent on some all-powerful God, when the math tells us that this simply isn't so. If people learned how to think more like mathematicians, we could rid the world of such childish claims and move on from there to something more important.
Rather than your school-book, conventional view of science, there are stories of much more in the (fantastic) World: telepathy (with priming so to remove subverters), soul by Out-of-body experiences, other Near-death experiences and phantom feelings, reincarnation of a body torn to bits and coming back into one piece "magically" and stories of people shape-shifting into different forms, whether human forms or other. Still, the Abiogenesis experiments are in an early stage and we can see much more from these.

In addition, it seems so easy to blurt out the "obvious" from school-books, but for people without the knowledge, the insights, the research and the humility to understand other people's life experiences different from one's own, there's the Problem of Induction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction.

No, in this fantastic World, all lot seems possible. Equally well then and plausibly too, I say God exists! :D

Note: Please, also make a mark on "Wart"-religiousness: https://whatiswritten777.blogspot.no/20 ... gious.html. That some people simply deny religious views out of something else than honesty.

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