Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

-1- wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:40 pm
JohnDoe7 wrote: The problem with subjective morality is that it becomes an objective code, as one's who goes against this code becomes immoral to themselves. We can observe this in certain Christian laws such as the Doctrine of Conscious, where the final moral authority is one of consciousness (which from a Judaic perspective is similar or equal to "loyalty")
Please provide an example of an actual, real life occurrence of this. It may be factual or fictional, but please make it representative of the concept you described in the quote.
A real life occurrence that may be "fictional"?

Certain religious systems, Christianity being the forefront in memory, observe:

https://www.scribd.com/document/1304964 ... Conscience

We can observe this, in weaker forms, such as the golden rule (which extends in variations in eastern religions) where one is required not to denigrate the conscious of others if it denigrates their own.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

-1- wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:43 pm """JohnDoe7 wrote: In a separate respect certain objective codes, such as thou shall not kill, become subjective in nature do to circumstance. These circumstances in themselves will always be objective however due to a dependence on "reason as proportionality". Going to the cave and city example we can observe that "relativity" by default leads to "constants". """

Yes, certain phenomena, such as being in a specific time or place are entirely subjective. I may subjectively experience being in place "x", however place "y" I may only have an objective experience of (such as reading about it from a book).

What is this "reason as proportionality"? I can't conceptualize the meaning of the expression. Please explain. This may be a valid concept, except it needs to be described by you for ordinary mortals like me, who can't read your mind.
What is reason but the observation of structure, with structure itself being composed of various forms of symmetry (ranging from standard geometry to me saying "x" which causes person to say "y") that in themselves exist if they have a medial point to balance them (geometric forms having "centers" or a conversation having a "center" point). In these respects reason, as proportionality, is reason as giving a maintaining structure through a specific median point.

One example would be in the course of the dialogue maintaining focus on its center point in order to give reflect further structure in the conversation itself. Another example, albeit one of a moral nature conducive to the dialogue, would be to keep in proportion one's actions relative to a situation. If I am in a fight, that is not life and death, by default I keep my actions in proportion to the situation and do not kill an opponent. In a life or death circumstance this changes correspondingly.

Now considering these executions of reason depend on the knowledge of what is happening several variables occur:

1) I must be knowledgeable about the situation with any form of ignorance, either intentional or unintentional, further mirroring the nature of the moral dillema.

2) If I am not knowledge about the situation, I am morally required to execute reason where percieved. If my ignorance is due to either intent or pure weakness the culpability changes.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

-1- wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:51 pm
JohnDoe7 wrote: In these respects it is faulty to argue either subjective or objective only, considering both are dependent on the other and in these respects objective and subjective must reflect, through their relations, the very same laws with form them: "reason as justice through proportion".
This is not true. It is saying that green can't exist without red, and that chair can't exist without table.
Their dependence on eachother is due to their inherent symmetry. While the chair exists as the chair, for the purpose of sitting, and exists as its own entity, the the table correspondingly exists as a place of work, both have inherent function separate from the other. In a seperate respect both "sitting" and "work" reflect eachother under certain cirumstance such as "time of ones work in relation to their stamina" and both functions mirror eachother through another median which unites both of their purposes in which both are inseperable under certain medial premises, ie this case one's physical health. Now health, while subjective to the individual maintains certain constants such as diet relfecting certain genetic predisposition in which eating "x" with "a" genetics always causes "e" health effect.



Sure an objective something and a subjective something else can exist. You declare this again as a bang-bang ammunition from your store of philosophical wisdom (I called it "pantry" earlier).

The other thing is... you build this argument on a statement "reason as justice through proportion". What do you mean by this? It does not make sense to me. Maybe there exists an explanation, but maybe you just wrote it down embedded in highly conceptualized ideals, that not even God can understand (so to speak), but you. I am not saying this is false; I am saying it does not make sense, at least to me.

Argument presented in previous segments, if you disagree I can expand upon it further.

I have pointed it out to you many, many, many times, to speak to members of your own species please in a way which they understand.

You replied, invariably, "ask if you don't understand". This is one of those times, when I ask. So what does "reason as justice through proportion" mean to you? In a language I understand, please.

Were not you fired for not following the same criteria? Do you really have the right to case judgement as to what is "intelligible" and what "is not intelligible?"
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

-1- wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:54 pm
JohnDoe7 worte: Reason, as measurement, extends from life with life being the greatest moral value. What we understand of the passions (lust, greed, etc.) are merely disordered appetites that are not in balance with reason and necessity. However, the passions in themselves, when kept in balance are good in themselves. The act of reason, in regards reflecting upon the actions of oneself, those around them, and the environment becomes an objective moral requirement.
Well, yes, okay, but what's your point with this? Is it in support that morality is absolute, or relative?
Considering "change" is the boundary to what is constant, what we observe in relativistic morality is merely a deficiency in any perceivable unity and in these regards is "morality as change". Considering morality has changing elements, through observing reality through specific time/space localities (which are also conducive to change) the observation of what is changing within the specific phenomena allows for a greater degree of observing what is consistent.

Or is this a step to a further step down the road of your train of thought?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

-1- wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:04 pm
JohnDoe7 wrote: Reason, as the act of measurement through the promulgation of balance, is an objective moral code in the respect it forms the measurements which form us and vice versa. To leave this habit of conduct, as the practice of reason is a disciplined art like any other art, is to cast a judgement upon oneself through the scales of proportion inherent within both man, nature, and the creator (considering you are an gnostic you may disagree with the last part). We can see these scales within principles such as "frequency" and "polarity" (alternations) that happen both in physics, the animal kingdom in reproductive/herd-movement/feeding cycles, celestial events, a person's mood, etc where one imbalance cause an extreme in the other. This moral code shows that extremes, results in the very extremes we will be....one could say "judged" by.
"Reason, as the act of measurement through the promulgation of balance, " sorry, but I assert that this phrase makes no senses in any possible universe.
The act of reasoning, in turn gives measurement to the phenomena being observe (as to what constructs and does not construct it) In these respects through the observation of its structure, we are better able to observe it's center point and see the balanced median in both the phenomena itself and our perception of it. In these respect we "promulgate" a further balance by observing the median between ourselves and the percieve phenomena.

Take for example me observing a tiny particle. I am aware that I can only see so much empirically, and that the particle exists because of "x,y,z" argument (which in itself is a phenomena of conscious) hence I develop a "median" (in this case a tool, such as a microscope) to mediate between myself and the phenomena hence achieve a balance where greater clarity and definition is given.




"is an objective moral code in the respect it forms the measurements which form us and vice versa. " Measurements form us, you say. I say no, measurements don't form us.
With measurements strictly being the observation of boundaries and its corresponding absence of boundaries, along with the application of the vary same, by default you gave measurement to the argument by applying boundaries to it...even in the form of a simple yes, no.

"To leave this habit of conduct, as the practice of reason is a disciplined art like any other art, is to cast a judgement upon oneself through the scales of proportion inherent within both man, nature, " Number of things wrong with this quote, one being that other than humans and to a degree some mammals, no part of nature practices a reason of disciplined art like any other art. ETC.
Considering reasoning is the observation of structure, through symmetry, does not a wolf use a degree of reasoning when equating "x" smell with "y" prey? How much more for people?

The other major wrong part of this quote is that again you use two verbs in one sentence.


Yes, I know you blasted me, with examples even, to show me that it is proper to use more than one verb in a sentence. I did not reply, because I am not your grade seven grammar teacher.
According to what you claimed, you are not any teacher at all, and were even fired for not being able to find a common median with several of your students. Add to the fact that language is reflective of certain cultural biases and regions, neither of which we share, and I would consider most of your criticisms void for the circumstances.

Research the subject, you will find that there are such things as clauses, sentences.
Invalid according to your standards.


You will find that sentences can share a verb,
Invalid according to your standards.

or a sentence can share many subjects, or a subject can have many verbs;

but 1 sentence, 1 verb,and you constantly break that rule, making your utterances nonsensical, since you break the laws of syntax, which immediately robs your utterances of any meaning, of any semantic sense.

You do understand the above was one sentence, correct?
You are cracking up, you may want to take some time off...you can talk to your therapist about this if you want. You can talk about your self-hatred and hypocrisy for a start.

Do you want to start using "expletives" now, -1-? You may find it very therapeutic.
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

Greatest I am wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:23 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:23 am
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:27 pm
Does the Exsultet hymn that call the sin of Adam a happy fault and necessary sin change your view?
tell me more about the above particular. first time i've head of it.

i welcome knowledge - though an atheistic Belial bound heathen.
I don't know what to tell you.

Christianity curses Adam and charge him with Original Sin, and then sing their hymn saying it was a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

They want their cake and eat it too. All while saying that the Jewish vie of Eden being our place of elevation and not our fall is wrong.

Their vie seems quite stupid. No?

Regards
DL
I agree that the so call "Fall" interpretation of Orthodox christianity is the reverse of the intent of the original text - its there in Black and White - Adam/Eve "became" as Gods (plural - that work is Polytheistic of course - the removal of "us" to "Him" (a singular God) is just another miss-interpretation of the original text/theology.

as per your reference to my earlier posts concerning Religions (Ortho-christian per your interest) being a "box" cage" etc...............i agree.

we only differ in that you do not include Gnostism in that same "box" - while I do.

I know quite a lot about Ghostic theology - it is clearly different that Ortho Christian thought, but do not view it as "Better" - i.e. i just see anothor box - like with all Religions (Western/Eastern - nothern or southern too - lol). I know you feel Ghostism offers more than a "box"

I do not see that as so, but would really like for you to tell me how/why I'm wrong - maybe I'll convert from my Athiesm (not likely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) - but hell who knows.

I'm here to become more than I am now - maybe you can help me to grow as a man.

or maybe not - either way i welcome a schooling ;-).
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

-1- wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:54 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:30 am as for Christian, nope. they will deny that the above - though it is written for them read! - is in the Torah and demand that God is good and NEVER had a part in making or even allowing Evil.
Christians are the most bone-headed, stupid, Goddamned stubborn people. They have no tolerance for anything. If you show them something green, and it is written in the Bible that that thing is red, then they will deny that the thing they are looking at is green.

They are truly fucked in the brain, them Christians. That is the most irritable of their ways: denying facts that are right in front of them, because they Bible says otherwise.

Then they wonder why people are abandoning their Christian ways. Well, if some belief system denies reality that's right in your face, so vehemently, then a lot of people must realize that it is stupid to follow such dogma.
I not big in generalization (I'm not appologist either BTW) - not a "simp" lol.

I'm not going to paint a broad brush here - I've met and known many openminded Christians. I don't know the percentages (Narrow vs Open) - but I'd guess that 1/4 of Christians are open minded (that leaves out near all Fundies).

Is it save for me to assume you are not a Christian?
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:07 pm
-1- wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:54 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:30 am as for Christian, nope. they will deny that the above - though it is written for them read! - is in the Torah and demand that God is good and NEVER had a part in making or even allowing Evil.
Christians are the most bone-headed, stupid, Goddamned stubborn people. They have no tolerance for anything. If you show them something green, and it is written in the Bible that that thing is red, then they will deny that the thing they are looking at is green.

They are truly fucked in the brain, them Christians. That is the most irritable of their ways: denying facts that are right in front of them, because they Bible says otherwise.

Then they wonder why people are abandoning their Christian ways. Well, if some belief system denies reality that's right in your face, so vehemently, then a lot of people must realize that it is stupid to follow such dogma.
DOGMA? AM_GOD. www.androcies.com

I'm a Christian. I believe in the life and teachings of Christ. What don't I tolerate? Show me something that is green where in the bible it says it is red, thus I must believe the buy bull.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush as the Greatest nitwit does.
Agreed. stand for your beliefs Sir.

one is judged by there charater not which god that worship anyhoo.

I'm not into painting via the broad brush either.

-------------

Some (most IMO) Christian do the same with us Atheists.

from your reply i think that may leave you out (a credit in my book).

peace.
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

Greatest I am wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:49 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:07 pm
-1- wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:54 am
Christians are the most bone-headed, stupid, Goddamned stubborn people. They have no tolerance for anything. If you show them something green, and it is written in the Bible that that thing is red, then they will deny that the thing they are looking at is green.

They are truly fucked in the brain, them Christians. That is the most irritable of their ways: denying facts that are right in front of them, because they Bible says otherwise.

Then they wonder why people are abandoning their Christian ways. Well, if some belief system denies reality that's right in your face, so vehemently, then a lot of people must realize that it is stupid to follow such dogma.
DOGMA? AM_GOD. www.androcies.com

I'm a Christian. I believe in the life and teachings of Christ. What don't I tolerate? Show me something that is green where in the bible it says it is red, thus I must believe the buy bull.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush as the Greatest nitwit does.
If you are a Christian then you believe that Yahweh is a good God. Right?

How do you get to that point when considering that God is portrayed as a genocidal God who kills so much when he could cure just as easily?

Regards
DL
You do that by ignoring the Torah, and Saul's Letters - and valuing the Minor Prophet's OT works and the NT that was written by guys that were not Saul.
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

-1- wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:50 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:07 pm
I'm a Christian. I believe in the life and teachings of Christ. What don't I tolerate? Show me something that is green where in the bible it says it is red, thus I must believe the buy bull.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush as the Greatest nitwit does.
I am not going into that debate. When I first started on this site, I had a debate with a Christian, who denied that people who call themselves Christian are Christian. He believed he himself was a Christian, though, despite calling himself a Christian.

So much for recognizing a Christian. Even Christians have no value for Christians.

I forgot the user's username, but it was a funny debate. He asked me for a definition of a Christian, which I gave, and when I asked him his definition, he waffled for a long time, at which point I gave up and got out of the debate.
the old "true scottsman" mantra.

its not limited to Christians.

Hindus and Muslims of narrow mindset play the same game (50,000 dead since 2002 over the Shia vs Sunni bullshit). None narrowminded Muslims affirm both are Muslims - of course the pencil dick Mulsims are sure that only Shia (or Summi) are "true" Muslims.................then 1 in a 100 of those dicks strap on explosives (to the credit of the other 99 - they just stew in thier hate of the "Fake" Muslims - rather than go out and kill them) and go out and "Defend" "True Islam".

BTW prior to the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq by America, the top killers in the modern era from 1980 to 2001 were Tamil HINDUS, the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.

I'm not an ignorant Islamophobe and have kept up on current events since around 1980. I'm an equal opportunity finger pointer.

BTW the other Religion the Sikh's murdered Indians in 1982 over Ireland (blew up a plane killing 280 folks - some Hindu, so it ok - lol). Sikh's got their panties in a knot becuase thier "hero" (a Sikh thug - Bendwali(sp)) took over the Golden Temple and armied to the teeth, then proclaimed it was not under the rule of India..................(i.e. India's Waco).

Well the Indian army rightly could no allow this and stormed the temple and killed the thug.

and the rest is history.................it cost 280 lives on that plane - where maybe 1/3 were Hindu (some were Sikh's so yes the Canadian asshat Sikh's killed some of "there own" - for the "Greater good" i guess - lol.....................it cost Indera Ghandi her life as well shortly after (Sikh bodygurd of her - one she know and trusted - shot her point blank).

and the rest is history.

the folly of narrow minds.
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 pm
I've no doubt that the God that has interacted with me for the past 20yrs is the same God that had interactions with the likes of Moses, Abraham, various witch doctors in Africa, various Hindu teachers etc etc etc..
then you are of the openminded 1/4 of Christians (Muslims/Hindus/etc).

I've taken a mental note on that.

I thank you too.

sadly the other 3/4 of Christians/Muslims/Hindus/etc...........are not of our ilk.

- i don't much sleep "suffer over fools" however. so it does not bother me. to do so empowers them.

I prefer to fixate upon folks like you - my brethren of the wise of good heart. which empowers us.

we are in the together: the wise vs the fools, not the Christians vs Atheists vs Hindus/etc.

there will always be fools in this world, the best we can do is to minimize their numbes by disscourse (and war if need be - worst case (like with today's Brexit/Trumper (both Hitlerites)....most fools are beyond salvation to wisdom, but if one in hundred is able to overcome, it may be a worth the fight.

attofishpi wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 pm God has been THE most evil thing to ever have happened to me. 'IT' does not fuck around where one has committed indiscretions in the past, and continues to live a life not on the path 'IT' wants one to live. It TESTS in the most evil way. TEST-A-MEN-T

hmmmmmm this sounds personal. would love to know more about it, but its not my place to ask.

thanks for contributing your view. i suspect we share similar mindsets regardless of our differing "Faith".

peace.
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

-1- wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:51 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:51 pm
If you have gotten what you wanted from the thread, to agree or disagree and make your case, then sure.

So I wrote already what I wanted to write: If a belief system declares that everything has originated in from one particular thing, then everything in existence is a willful creation of that one thing.

Whether the creations be good or bad, evil or not. If something is evil, like Satan or the Devil in Christianity, it still comes from the very same one creator, and the creator is ultimately responsible for the evil's existence, since it came from the creator.

There is not a thing they can say against that. But they still won't acknowledge that this is true, the Christians won't.
precisely!
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

-1- wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:00 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:51 pmIf the goal is to convert him to your rules of thought,
DL
No, I am not trying to change anyone's rules. There is only one rule I recognize: logical thought, logical and consistent reasoning. It is the destination of other's train of thought which I want to put on the right track: If you follow logic, then certain things must follow, and certain things can't follow from a set of axioms / a set of hypotheses / a set of premisses.
I like Logic - but is still limited. Man's nature (man is only animal to have logic (even when most men do not use it - lol ;-/..).

but it will not get to to the Truth of............life/reality/etc................

man is still just a dumb ant - if a logical one at best.

- a long ago lost interest in finding "Truth" - i believe there is ONE (not many) - but it is literally irrelivant since my nature is infinately too limited to find it by the nature of my limited nature.

but if others wish to pursue that folly, more power to them.
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

-1- wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:00 pm
In this case, the premis is that there is one creator from which all things come. Another premise is that evil exist. The conclusion I draw with the right logic, is that evil comes from the creator. The faulty reasoning is that evil does not come from the creator, in this instance from the Christian god, because it is infinitely good.

Something has to give: either god is not infinitely good, or else the devil does not originate in the creator. But the evil does originate in the creator. Therefore the creator is not infinitely good.

It is not possible for a Christian to go that far, and yet the roads of logic unerringly lead to that conclusion.

What can I do? I preach the word of logic.

Logos cortinam upse lego vindere.
Amen -= your conclusions are the only one allowed. and assuming the 2 alternatives:

1. God is all good, butlimited and did not create Belial

2. God is not all good, but created Belail to serve him in doing evil on this world.

Christians (if they use logic - lol - most don't - just sayin here...............near all will mandate Monotheism and so will be forced to assume 2 above.

as you have.

peace.
gaffo
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Post by gaffo »

Greatest I am wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:02 pm

My money is on evolution as it explains all the human to human evil quite nicely.
as mine. Evolution is all about survival. man the animal is a produce of evolution, so all evil he does is to promote survival of said animal.

including wars/murder/etc..............in some way i fail to understand, but we do those "Evils" - so it must be "good" per survival (evolution) in some way.

..........I suspect our technology has outpaced our nature though and said instincts for "Evil-good" might end in WW3/WW4/ and WW30 given enough time(s).............;-/.

there will always be the Southern hemisphere and with 7 billion - even with the use of all nukes in a horrendious muclear war - man somewhere (Tasmania/Terra Del fugo/etc............) will be around to rebuild and repeat the cycle to the next World War..............

repeat.............for a few thousand years.............until eventually by natural means (environment) man dies out like the dinos...........and raccoons evolve to our level.

then they will play the same game.

than another animal will take the raccoon's place.............

for a billion yrs - then the sun will make our world unlivable to any sentient life and only the germs will remain for the next 2 billion yrs......

then the sun will take the earth into her woom when she becomes a red giant.

-----------

I'm sure the other quadrillion planets out there have/are/will go through the exact same dance of death as we will.



peace.
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