Virgin Birth Myths

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by seeds » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 am

seeds wrote: I get around the problem of evil because to me there is no such thing as “evil” as if it were something you step in and can’t get off your shoe, or some dark and malevolent (otherworldly) virus that can infect a person’s soul.

No, I view evil as the consequence of “low consciousness” (i.e., the varying levels and degrees of the purposely designed somnambulistic state of humanity) and the actions resulting from it.
Belinda wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:19 am
All right, Seeds, let me put the question "How do you as a panentheist get around the problem of the enormous number of events that include suffering ?"
I get around it based on my personal belief that the balance of human focus and attention must always be tilted toward the corporeal (material) aspect of our current situation, as opposed to the transcendent aspect of our impending destiny.

As I clearly pointed out to you in the Einstein thread (linked below), humans simply cannot be allowed to know of the certainty of God’s existence, which means that when it comes to what lies beyond the threshold of death, we must always experience a degree of doubt. (https://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtop ... 15#p336360)

And as I stated in a slightly modified quote from yet another thread...
seeds wrote: ...besides the unfathomable size of the universe and the incredulousness in thinking that a singular living entity could create and control such a vast dimension of reality, what is the single most obvious reason that causes humans to doubt God’s existence?

It’s because she allows everything that we assume that a loving (and all-powerful) Being would (could/should) eliminate if she truly exists and truly cares about us.
And the point is, Belinda, that it is precisely your concerns regarding the existence of suffering and evil that cause you to doubt God’s existence which, in turn, helps to ensure the proper tilt of the aforementioned balance of human focus.

Now I do not mean to seem uncaring or cavalier about human suffering.

However, unlike you, I view our current status as merely being a “womb-like” situation wherein we each momentarily exist in a fleeting (“fetal-like”) prelude to a second and final birth into a higher context of reality where all of the confusion and suffering that we are presently experiencing will be ended.

So then, Belinda, with all of that being said, I need to ask you a question.

And the question is that if you were God, then what would you do differently?

And please don’t give me some vague response that amounts to nothing more than...

“...Well, if I was God, I certainly wouldn’t allow any suffering to take place in the world that I created...”


No, give me a specific and detailed list of what you would actually do or change with respect to the way our reality works for us.

For one simple example of what I am getting at, would you end the process of the shifting of the earth’s tectonic plates that in turn cause earthquakes which, of course, cause suffering?

Again, give me a list of what you would personally do (if you were God) to end suffering.
_______

Belinda
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Belinda » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am

(Belinda)All right, Seeds, let me put the question "How do you as a panentheist get around the problem of the enormous number of events that include suffering ?"
(Seeds)I get around it based on my personal belief that the balance of human focus and attention must always be tilted toward the corporeal (material) aspect of our current situation, as opposed to the transcendent aspect of our impending destiny.
[/quote]

(Belinda) I agree that we must deal with the world however much we may love the idea of eternal goodness, if I may paraphrase you.
(Seeds)
As I clearly pointed out to you in the Einstein thread (linked below), humans simply cannot be allowed to know of the certainty of God’s existence, which means that when it comes to what lies beyond the threshold of death, we must always experience a degree of doubt. (https://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtop ... 15#p336360)
(Belinda) I gather that you don't believe that anyone suffers after they die. I don't, anyway. Neither do I believe that after death there will be any experience of anything instead there will be oblivion.I often wish that I could meet certain people again, or at least experience eternal love in Heaven, but wishing is not to be confused with reason.
And as I stated in a slightly modified quote from yet another thread...

(Seeds)
...besides the unfathomable size of the universe and the incredulousness in thinking that a singular living entity could create and control such a vast dimension of reality, what is the single most obvious reason that causes humans to doubt God’s existence?

It’s because she allows everything that we assume that a loving (and all-powerful) Being would (could/should) eliminate if she truly exists and truly cares about us.
And the point is, Belinda, that it is precisely your concerns regarding the existence of suffering and evil that cause you to doubt God’s existence which, in turn, helps to ensure the proper tilt of the aforementioned balance of human focus.

Now I do not mean to seem uncaring or cavalier about human suffering.

However, unlike you, I view our current status as merely being a “womb-like” situation wherein we each momentarily exist in a fleeting (“fetal-like”) prelude to a second and final birth into a higher context of reality where all of the confusion and suffering that we are presently experiencing will be ended.
(Belinda) But the enormous suffering that has been experienced by one child and its mother in some concentration camp makes nonsense of your implicit claim that suffering is justified by anything at all. I cannot justify such suffering, although I can according to your explanation justify my own much much smaller suffering to date as a learning experience.The scale of suffering by many poor creatures, despite that the condition may be transient, makes nonsense of any claim that God's benevolence can coexist with God's power.

(Seeds)
So then, Belinda, with all of that being said, I need to ask you a question.

And the question is that if you were God, then what would you do differently?

And please don’t give me some vague response that amounts to nothing more than...

“...Well, if I was God, I certainly wouldn’t allow any suffering to take place in the world that I created...”


(Seeds)
No, give me a specific and detailed list of what you would actually do or change with respect to the way our reality works for us.

For one simple example of what I am getting at, would you end the process of the shifting of the earth’s tectonic plates that in turn cause earthquakes which, of course, cause suffering?

Again, give me a list of what you would personally do (if you were God) to end suffering.

(Belinda)If I were God I would abdicate all claims to power, but retain claims to omniscience and omnibenevolence. I would admit that the movements of tectonic plates was necessary and not caused by me. I would also admit that suffering and pain are necessary and not caused by me. I would point out that I have not and never did have power to stop either huge natural events or smaller events that involve the suffering of sentient creatures. I would reveal myself to be a spirit of goodness and truth which although invisible is revealed in human sympathy and human respect for truth and reason.I would place responsibility, freedom, and a measure of power in the hands and minds of men.

seeds
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by seeds » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:26 pm

The Dictionary wrote: mir•a•cle
noun
1. a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
Dubious wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:57 am
A precise description of why it isn’t in the context of our discussion otherwise we’d have over eight billion miracles wandering on the planet with more on the way.
But that’s just it, Dubious, we do have 8 (7.6) billion miracles wandering on the planet.

Now I may be taking a little bit of license with the word miracle, nevertheless, what I mean by “miracle” is represented in the absolute and utter mystery of how the essence of life can somehow be focused and then awakened into a singularly unique individualization of mind and consciousness with a distinct and personal identity.

In other words, what is the mechanism that transforms the raw essence of life into a subjectively-based focalization of self-aware “I Am-ness” that not only sits at the core of a closed and sovereign dimension of mind, but is capable of manipulating the fabric of that mind into absolutely anything it wishes to see, touch, hear, smell, or taste?
Dubious wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:57 am
I can’t believe real miracles are that easy to reproduce! And what's the miracle anyways since we can explain how life emerges very well these days according to scientific laws which preempts the supernatural!
Sure, we can explain how the informationally-based workings of DNA guide the production of proteins into manufacturing the physical features of a material body – all powered by the energy supplied by the sun.**

However, in no way, shape, or form can we explain how or why an individualization of personal consciousness (a mind) emerges from the process.

And that’s the “miracle” to which I am referring – a miracle that occurs with such ease and normality that you are lulled into thinking that it’s simply a mundane feature of reality.

**(Another miracle - in and of itself - that is taken for granted by the jaded mind.)
_______

seeds
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by seeds » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:27 pm

The Dictionary wrote: mir•a•cle
noun
1. a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
Londoner wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:34 am
I've got to somewhat disagree with 'Dictionary'. An event that was 'not explicable by natural or scientific laws' would suggest that the universe is without order.
Or...

...that the order of the universe is so far above our ability to understand its true and deeper workings...

(such as that which allows it to produce unique individualizations of personal consciousness - as is described to Dubious in my prior post)

...that our present formulations of scientific laws are barely scratching the surface.

Don’t you think that that’s the more likely scenario?
Londoner wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:34 am
If it was 'therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency', then it would be suggesting that this divine agency was random and capricious.
How so?
Londoner wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:34 am
However, if the universe always operated in a predictable way, like a machine, then it would be equally meaningless. The 'divine agency' would not be an agent because it never exercised its agency.
Not so, because the divine agent could have exercised its agency by causing the universe to function with machine-like precision and predictability (which is exactly what we see, btw).
_______

Dubious
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dubious » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:47 am

seeds wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:26 pm
Now I may be taking a little bit of license with the word miracle, nevertheless, what I mean by “miracle” is represented in the absolute and utter mystery of how the essence of life can somehow be focused and then awakened into a singularly unique individualization of mind and consciousness with a distinct and personal identity.
If true then you must also realize that a big part of that providential individualization process consists of thoroughly malevolent minds that should in every sense be eradicated, one in which the numbers don’t count. This singular mystery has an intensely viral side to it.

But again, I don’t find it so amazingly miraculous due to the very long process by which consciousness develops which must likewise and inevitably forge an identity. Consciousness denotes separation without losing affinity with others...including the somewhat lesser citizens of the planet.
seeds wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:26 pm
However, in no way, shape, or form can we explain how or why an individualization of personal consciousness (a mind) emerges from the process.
That’s true or almost true but that still doesn’t imply that the process is anything other than natural though there remain mysteries in nature which seem supernatural!
seeds wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:26 pm
And that’s the “miracle” to which I am referring – a miracle that occurs with such ease and normality that you are lulled into thinking that it’s simply a mundane feature of reality.
Again I contend that while true miracles are exceptions if any such existed, pseudo miracles are those we fail to transcribe into an understandable sequence impervious for the time being to current scrutiny.

Not to infer any thoughts you may have but I believe you may still think consciousness a miracle even if completely understood; in that respect, I’m not inclined to disagree.

Btw, my mind is not so jaded as you think! It's just that it's former sharp edges have become somewhat rounded by age. :wink:

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Dontaskme
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:11 am

Belinda wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:10 pm
Virgin birth myths may all have in common that they are explanations of how something exists instead of nothing.
What was the seed that fertilised inert possibility?
The virgin birth is a metaphor for unborn pure awareness. That which is unborn cannot die therefore must be what is always and forever eternal infinitely.

Meaning, the virgin birth is a myth.

Can't have nothing without something, can't have something without nothing. They are the same one mind..alternating between apparent two.

Nothing does not need something to be.
But something needs nothing to be.

______

Q:What was the seed that fertilised inert possibility?

A: Nothing..aka mind...only the mind is born not the identity.

Just different shapes of the shapeless...formless inform.

Knowledge informs illusory reality.

The illusion of separation..knowledge separates apparently.

.

Belinda
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Belinda » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:18 am

D A M, I agree.

seeds
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by seeds » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:03 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 am
...it is precisely your concerns regarding the existence of suffering and evil that cause you to doubt God’s existence which, in turn, helps to ensure the proper tilt of the aforementioned balance of human focus.
Belinda wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
But the enormous suffering that has been experienced by one child and its mother in some concentration camp makes nonsense of your implicit claim that suffering is justified by anything at all.
And exactly “who” do you think is responsible for the suffering of a child and its mother in some concentration camp?

In other words, why are you laying the responsibility for such evilness at the feet of God and not humans?

I mean, haven't we been clearly instructed, from multiple spiritual sources, about the need for living by the “Golden Rule”?
Belinda wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
The scale of suffering by many poor creatures, despite that the condition may be transient, makes nonsense of any claim that God's benevolence can coexist with God's power.
That’s quite the hypocritical statement coming from someone who insisted in the same post that if she were God, she would absolve herself of any blame for the suffering of earth’s creatures.

Furthermore, from where are you getting the notion that God’s benevolence must also include a constant supernatural intervention in human affairs in order to correct our mistakes?
seeds wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 am
...the question is that if you were God, then what would you do differently?
Belinda wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
If I were God I would abdicate all claims to power, but retain claims to omniscience and omnibenevolence. I would admit that the movements of tectonic plates was necessary and not caused by me.
What do you mean not caused by you?

If you are God, then you are the one who created the tectonic plates (and their necessary movements) in the first place.
Belinda wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
If I were God...I would also admit that suffering and pain are necessary and not caused by me.
That’s another non sequitur, for although you may not be directly and intentionally causing the pain and suffering, it was nevertheless you that incorporated into the human body, the ability to sense pain when those tectonic movements bring our houses down.

Furthermore, if you admit that suffering and pain are “necessary,” then why did you (as human Belinda) refer to it as being a “problem” for the God of Panentheism, but not a problem for God Belinda?
Belinda wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
If I were God...I would point out that I have not and never did have power to stop either huge natural events or smaller events that involve the suffering of sentient creatures.
Yet another non sequitur, for any Being who is capable of creating the multifarious features and phenomena of the very arena (the universe) in which huge natural events can occur, is certainly capable of preventing those events from causing the suffering of sentient creatures.

Belinda, you asked me (in an accusatory tone) the question of how I (as a Panentheist) get around the “problem” of God allowing the enormous number of events that include (facilitate) suffering?

And when I asked you in return as to what you would do to end the suffering if you were God, you shamelessly implied that if you were God you would simply absolve yourself of all responsibility for any of it.

Nice one, B. :D

You have just disqualified yourself from ever being able to offer any form of negative criticism of God when it comes to the perennial argument regarding the problem of evil. :wink:
Belinda wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
If I were God...I would reveal myself...
Belinda, what do I have to say to you to make you understand that if you were God, then (allegedly) you not only possess the capability of awakening your very own offspring into existence, but also that of ensuring that they will continue to exist in the higher context of reality in which you yourself exist.

Therefore, revealing yourself would “spill the beans,” “let the cat out of the bag,” etc., etc., which would in turn breach the integrity of the very “womb” of their conception (the universe) and risk invoking the scenario that I laid-out for you in the Einstein thread (again - https://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtop ... 15#p336360]).
_______

Belinda
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Belinda » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:44 pm

Seeds wrote:

And exactly “who” do you think is responsible for the suffering of a child and its mother in some concentration camp?



In other words, why are you laying the responsibility for such evilness at the feet of God and not humans?
God is supposed to be all powerful. If he were all powerful and also all benevolent he would save the mother and her child.You cannot have it both ways Seeds.
I mean, haven't we been clearly instructed, from multiple spiritual sources, about the need for living by the “Golden Rule”?
All powerful God should live by his own Golden Rule.
Belinda wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
The scale of suffering by many poor creatures, despite that the condition may be transient, makes nonsense of any claim that God's benevolence can coexist with God's power.
Seeds wrote:
That’s quite the hypocritical statement coming from someone who insisted in the same post that if she were God, she would absolve herself of any blame for the suffering of earth’s creatures.
I did nothing of the sort. The idea of God makes no sense unless He is either 1. not all -powerful or 2. not all -benevolent.
I like benevolence better than power so I'd choose for God to be all -benevolent.
Seeds wrote:
Furthermore, from where are you getting the notion that God’s benevolence must also include a constant supernatural intervention in human affairs in order to correct our mistakes?
I thought we were talking about the version of God Whom intervenes in history.

Seeds wrote, quoting me:
I were God I would abdicate all claims to power, but retain claims to omniscience and omnibenevolence. I would admit that the movements of tectonic plates was necessary and not caused by me.
What do you mean not caused by you?

If you are God, then you are the one who created the tectonic plates (and their necessary movements) in the first place.[/quote]

If God abdicated all claims to power then He would abdicate the claim to power over tectonic plates.


Seeds wrote quoting me:
If I were God...I would also admit that suffering and pain are necessary and not caused by me.
That’s another non sequitur, for although you may not be directly and intentionally causing the pain and suffering, it was nevertheless you that incorporated into the human body, the ability to sense pain when those tectonic movements bring our houses down.
Pain and suffering are natural and are not caused by any supernatural being.

Seeds asked:
Furthermore, if you admit that suffering and pain are “necessary,” then why did you (as human Belinda) refer to it as being a “problem” for the God of Panentheism, but not a problem for God Belinda?
Because panentheism is theism under another name.

wisdomlover
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by wisdomlover » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:45 pm

I'm pretty sure no human virgin ever had a baby. Interestingly, the Gospel according to Mark talks about the siblings of Jesus of Nazareth, so Jesus' mother was certainly not a virgin, and everyone back then knew it.

What we today call Christianity evolved over a couple hundred years. Jesus and his immediate followers would find it unrecognizable.

What makes the immaculate conception myth particularly pernicious is its implication that sex is dirty. Sex is not dirty. I'm not sure who is the source of this myth -- St. Augustine? Or an earlier "Church Father?"

Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:48 am

wisdomlover wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:45 pm
I'm pretty sure no human virgin ever had a baby. Interestingly, the Gospel according to Mark talks about the siblings of Jesus of Nazareth, so Jesus' mother was certainly not a virgin, and everyone back then knew it.

What we today call Christianity evolved over a couple hundred years. Jesus and his immediate followers would find it unrecognizable.

What makes the immaculate conception myth particularly pernicious is its implication that sex is dirty. Sex is not dirty. I'm not sure who is the source of this myth -- St. Augustine? Or an earlier "Church Father?"
What IYO about the immaculate conception gives the impression that sex is dirty?

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Greta
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Greta » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:02 am

Seriously, either Mary became pregnant and told a tale to save herself from being murdered or it's simply a myth, with the concept, maybe borrowed from the Egyptian Osiris.

We are modern human beings and we know that the virgin births of mythology are not possible for humans. There is no mechanism.

Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:13 am

Greta wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:02 am
Seriously, either Mary became pregnant and told a tale to save herself from being murdered or it's simply a myth, with the concept, maybe borrowed from the Egyptian Osiris.

We are modern human beings and we know that the virgin births of mythology are not possible for humans. There is no mechanism.
You say this because you are a secularist limited to horizontal dualistic reason. If you were open to the universe as a triune reality sustained by the complimentary laws of evolution and involution, your understanding would broaden. But you are limited to arguing about Trump. That is your way but not everyone must be so limited. They can understand at least theoretically the logic behind the virgin birth.

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Greta
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Greta » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:21 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:13 am
Greta wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:02 am
Seriously, either Mary became pregnant and told a tale to save herself from being murdered or it's simply a myth, with the concept, maybe borrowed from the Egyptian Osiris.

We are modern human beings and we know that the virgin births of mythology are not possible for humans. There is no mechanism.
You say this because you are a secularist limited to horizontal dualistic reason.
There was most likely a horizontal position involved, yes.

Why believe in fanciful myths? Come on, Nick, deep down you KNOW they are just myths. I don't even see why you feel the need to literally believe such myths. Obviously much of the Bible was metaphorical, because comparing like with like is the only way to explain and describe things in lieu of technical language.

Insemination is needed for pregnancy. Self insemination would seem only theoretically possible if Mary was intersexed (Marky?). The idea of God coming down to Earth and inseminating Mary with his seminal fluid and DNA in the night is about as credible as Noah gathering all non-aquatic terrestrial animals, two by two, and keeping them safe in a large boat for months.

It is high time for our public discourse to grow up, to leave behind these childish things and face reality more squarely. Alas, probably not in my lifetime.

Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:40 am

Greta wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:21 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:13 am
Greta wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:02 am
Seriously, either Mary became pregnant and told a tale to save herself from being murdered or it's simply a myth, with the concept, maybe borrowed from the Egyptian Osiris.

We are modern human beings and we know that the virgin births of mythology are not possible for humans. There is no mechanism.
You say this because you are a secularist limited to horizontal dualistic reason.
There was most likely a horizontal position involved, yes.

Why believe in fanciful myths? Come on, Nick, deep down you KNOW they are just myths. I don't even see why you feel the need to literally believe such myths. Obviously much of the Bible was metaphorical, because comparing like with like is the only way to explain and describe things in lieu of technical language.

Insemination is needed for pregnancy. Self insemination would seem only theoretically possible if Mary was intersexed (Marky?). The idea of God coming down to Earth and inseminating Mary with his seminal fluid and DNA in the night is about as credible as Noah gathering all non-aquatic terrestrial animals, two by two, and keeping them safe in a large boat for months.

It is high time for our public discourse to grow up, to leave behind these childish things and face reality more squarely. Alas, probably not in my lifetime.
It isn't a matter of believing myths but of opening your mind to a scientific hypothesis your devotion to secularism keeps you closed to. Just keep arguing about Trump and you'll be happy

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