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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:00 am
by Science Fan
Nick A: Marx did not document anything scientific regarding normal cycles of anything. In fact, you completely avoided my point. Marx, just like numerous Christians, as one example, set forth pre-ordained stages of history. Atheists don't do that. Neither do scientists. Religious people, however, typically make such claims, and that was Marx ---- a religious person, just not a Bible-thumper, but that, however, does not mean he was free from religious thinking.

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:56 am
by Greta
Nick_A wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:26 am Greta
No, stop rationalising. Do you believe that Noah's Ark is a true account?
You call it a myth. What does the myth represent for you? What is the purpose of this myth?
Firstly, answer my question and I will answer yours. No obfuscating quotes either - just your own words.

So the question I asked was whether you believe that a man and his family built a huge ark before a major flood and that he lead two of every species to that ark, keeping them alive for months until the floodwaters receded? Do you believe that was literally true? If so, how do you think he attracted the animals and kept them safe and fed?

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:33 am
by Dontaskme
Thanks for proving your mind is nothing more than a bunch of made up words appearing on a blank screen.

Greta wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:03 amExcuse me while I go and cease to exist for a while ... until the next post when I shall briefly wink back into an existence whose ultimate fate is to lie within one of Google's archives.
You got it, you are the immediate semblance of what is archived away in memory. There is nothing here other than the memory. Awareness is a blank screen on which the memory lives.

The totality of you is this immediate presence of not-knowing...the idea of you is knowledge. You exist as a concept known, apart from knowledge aka language you have no reality in and of itself.


It is knowledge itself that gives birth to you as an idea...BUT, as awareness is everything and everywhere as ONE. Knowledge implies the many of this one


Any attempts to cease to exist are futile.

.

The state of being aware is the cosmological constant.

.

That has to be.

.

And IT IS

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:19 am
by Belinda
Science Fan wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:26 am Nick A: Stop using the old guilt-by-association trick to claim that Marx was a secularist. Marx was a believer in the supernatural, so he's on your side of the fence. How else can one explain his claim that capitalism, socialism, and communism all had pre-ordained historical roles to fulfill? No atheist I know would ever make such a claim, but numerous theists make claims about human history being pre-ordained.
But your claim presumes that determinism includes a determiner. Some hindsighted people tell the story of capitalism, socialism, and communism as predestined events but determinism does not necessarily include predestination. Predestination is a form of determinism: determinism is not a form of predestination.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Nick, please look up a dictionary to learn that there are two meanings of the word 'myth'. The meaning which I use is not the meaning that you use, and vice versa.

I agree that virgin birth is a necessary part of the Christian story whether it's understood literally or metaphorically. Virgin birth is also a part of pagan stories. Stories that include miraculous virgin birth elements are myths because they at one time explained people to themselves. In this sense they are or were meaningful stories. In the light of modern science these stories aren't meaningful. Nick, do you understand how a novel, or a play, which are fictions, can explain us to ourselves? Nick, do you consider novels and plays to be secular and therefore lacking in truth?

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:13 pm
by Dontaskme
Greta wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:56 amNo obfuscating quotes either - just your own words.

You have no words of your own...they're all mine.

Signed NOONE ..aka GOD

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:14 pm
by Dontaskme
Belinda wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:19 am
Nick, please look up a dictionary to learn that there are two meanings of the word 'myth'. The meaning which I use is not the meaning that you use, and vice versa.
Just the one love in action dreaming difference where there is none.

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:56 pm
by Nick_A
Greta wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:56 am
Nick_A wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:26 am Greta
No, stop rationalising. Do you believe that Noah's Ark is a true account?
You call it a myth. What does the myth represent for you? What is the purpose of this myth?
Firstly, answer my question and I will answer yours. No obfuscating quotes either - just your own words.

So the question I asked was whether you believe that a man and his family built a huge ark before a major flood and that he lead two of every species to that ark, keeping them alive for months until the floodwaters receded? Do you believe that was literally true? If so, how do you think he attracted the animals and kept them safe and fed?

Logos is bottom up reaoning as in science in pursuit of truth. Mythos encourages top down contemplation to experience its truth leading to a conscious human perspective.

Noah’s Ark as opposed to the virgin birth is a myth. It invites the reader to open experience the myth in relation to consciousness.

The Ark represents conscious quality lower man at the time denied which is why chaos represented by the flood was a natural result. Water refers to truth which became all distorted. The Ark which represents our consciousness which can remain above the chaos of conflicting acquired worldy emotions. The animals represent the variety of our natural emotions. A minority will delve into the depths of this myth and discover the psychological meanings hidden within the myth. Secularists like you will deny it as meaningless

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:01 pm
by Nick_A
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:13 pm
Greta wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:56 amNo obfuscating quotes either - just your own words.

You have no words of your own...they're all mine.

Signed NOONE ..aka GOD
God, I have some choice four letter words I use at times that I am quite sure you didn't invent. I'll apologize for DaM blaming you.

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:08 pm
by Science Fan
Nick A: For Marx to state that communism is the ultimate end-goal of humanity, and history, and all of human history is headed there, does mean a supernatural entity is involved. There is absolutely nothing in all of science that points to such absurd claims as Marx came up with. And to state that merely materialistic, impersonal forces have an "ultimate goal," is nonsensical on its face.

Marx believed in the supernatural forces intervening and directing human affairs. He may have been opposed to the God of the Bible, but that does not mean he was an atheist, or even held scientific views. Many religious people disregard the Bible, like Pagans, for instance.

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:50 pm
by Belinda
Science Fan wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:08 pm Nick A: For Marx to state that communism is the ultimate end-goal of humanity, and history, and all of human history is headed there, does mean a supernatural entity is involved. There is absolutely nothing in all of science that points to such absurd claims as Marx came up with. And to state that merely materialistic, impersonal forces have an "ultimate goal," is nonsensical on its face.

Marx believed in the supernatural forces intervening and directing human affairs. He may have been opposed to the God of the Bible, but that does not mean he was an atheist, or even held scientific views. Many religious people disregard the Bible, like Pagans, for instance.
This is confused. "A supernatural entity" is usually taken to be an entity with intentions i.e. a teleological entity, an entity with goals or purposes i.e. telos. Final cause.

Your other confusion is about determinism. Determinism is not fatalism, that's to say determinism is open ended. You seem to think that Marx claimed that communism would be the end of history. Is there evidence to support that claim? one remembers that Stalin's Marxism was not what Marx said.

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:35 pm
by Dontaskme
Nick_A wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:01 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:13 pm
Greta wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:56 amNo obfuscating quotes either - just your own words.

You have no words of your own...they're all mine.

Signed NOONE ..aka GOD
God, I have some choice four letter words I use at times that I am quite sure you didn't invent. I'll apologize for DaM blaming you.
I feel like I keep repeating myself...My voice is everywhere.

But my concepts are limited and fixed....there’s only so much one can do with 26 letters. :D

⌨️

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:43 pm
by Science Fan
Belinda: It's actually you who is confused. Marx stating that communism is the end goal of all human history is stating a teleological purpose, or intent, by a supernatural entity. What else could have a "goal'? You think natural processes ever have a "goal"? They don't.

It is also not true that a deterministic system isn't closed. But in any event, we already know, unlike Marx, that the universe is not deterministic as quantum mechanics deals with probabilities, not deterministic outcomes, as Marx would have understood the term.

Anyone claiming that history is on some pre-ordained tract to carry out some ultimate goal is certainly not engaged in science, and is engaged in a supernatural claim. It's just that Marxists want to pretend that because they refer to "scientific socialism" that they are being scientific in their thinking. That's hardly the case. Marxists are as anti-scientific as one can get. Preordained history, but we still have to fight a revolution to get there? Human nature is consistent with communism, but we have to establish a dictatorship to get there? Value exists, but it is something that cannot be objectively confirmed in any way, including by a commodity's price? I can go on, but that should be enough to illustrate how whacky Marxism is.

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:41 pm
by Nick_A
Science Fan wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:08 pm Nick A: For Marx to state that communism is the ultimate end-goal of humanity, and history, and all of human history is headed there, does mean a supernatural entity is involved. There is absolutely nothing in all of science that points to such absurd claims as Marx came up with. And to state that merely materialistic, impersonal forces have an "ultimate goal," is nonsensical on its face.

Marx believed in the supernatural forces intervening and directing human affairs. He may have been opposed to the God of the Bible, but that does not mean he was an atheist, or even held scientific views. Many religious people disregard the Bible, like Pagans, for instance.
There is nothing surprising about this. When a direct connection is made between the quality of consciousness on earth and higher consciousness for the sake of the human condition, it soon begins to be absorbed into the earth and become less and less an influence until it is gone. The span of time from when it begins to when it ends I know of as an aeon.

The communist mind will dominate when the lack of a higher conscious influence enables it. Then people will be content to be atoms of the Great Beast responding only to earthly and cosmic influences needing the energies Man’s transformance of substances through its bodily processes produce.

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:38 am
by Greta
Nick_A wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:56 pm
Greta wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:56 am
Nick_A wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:26 am Greta



You call it a myth. What does the myth represent for you? What is the purpose of this myth?
Firstly, answer my question and I will answer yours. No obfuscating quotes either - just your own words.

So the question I asked was whether you believe that a man and his family built a huge ark before a major flood and that he lead two of every species to that ark, keeping them alive for months until the floodwaters receded? Do you believe that was literally true? If so, how do you think he attracted the animals and kept them safe and fed?

Logos is bottom up reaoning as in science in pursuit of truth. Mythos encourages top down contemplation to experience its truth leading to a conscious human perspective.

Noah’s Ark as opposed to the virgin birth is a myth. It invites the reader to open experience the myth in relation to consciousness.

The Ark represents conscious quality lower man at the time denied which is why chaos represented by the flood was a natural result. Water refers to truth which became all distorted. The Ark which represents our consciousness which can remain above the chaos of conflicting acquired worldy emotions. The animals represent the variety of our natural emotions. A minority will delve into the depths of this myth and discover the psychological meanings hidden within the myth. Secularists like you will deny it as meaningless
Why is the ark mythological and metaphorical yet the virgin birth is not? They are equally implausible.

By the way, flood myths are thought to have arose due to great floods thousands of years ago. Myths were ancient people's means of conveying information and passing on history. However, due to the constantly evolving nature of language, understanding exactly the angle from which ancients were coming from in not easy. There were, however, other flood myths from around the area at the time so there appears to have been an actual natural event.

"Secularists like me" may well find that your interpretation looks very much like a post hoc rationalisation. You don't need an ark and "global" flood to illustrate the famous truism of the turbulent shallows and calm depths - just a boat on a stormy sea.

The virgin birth, however, is clearly a way of boosting the "star power" of the Jesus myth. There may well have been a historical character, a preacher or teacher, but the magic attributed to him was clearly fictitious. It would be nice to believe that brain power or God power could do magic things, but they are pretty limited (eg. withstanding extreme heat or cold). Turning water into wine, walking on water, touch healing, the virgin birth and resurrection are fantastical embellishments on naturalistic events.

Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:10 am
by Nick_A
Greta, you are a literalist who cannot understand why scripture seems so confusing. Why write with myths and parable? Why not just say what is meant? The reason is that sacred ideas must reach the inner man. This is done by the use of myths and parables. They confuse the outer man or the personality so a void is created within which the deeper meanings are communicated. Plato understood it as did Einstein and others. It is what makes intuition possible. You prefer to remain closed with hostile negativity.

I cannot understand why you insist on opposing scripture with such negativity. Why not just avoid it? What good does it do you to attach such negativity to that which is sacred within you? If all you do is ridicule scripture because you don't understand it, is it possible the real reason is that you have become closed to the deeper meanings and insist on superficial denial to justify your negativity.