Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:27 am
...pure imagination...can invent anything...
seeds wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:03 am
...and that includes a universe.
Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 am
Why not! We're free to imagine anything we like but in this universe we first strive to discover what nature imagined and actually created. While much of that can seem miraculous it doesn't perform miracles as we usually apply the word....though you may disagree with that.
Yes, I do disagree with that.
I disagree because I refuse to acquiesce to the idea that the manifestation of a unique individualization of personal consciousness (such as yours or mine) is simply a mundane feature of the universe to be taken for granted when it is indeed a “miracle” in and of itself:
The Dictionary wrote:
mir•a•cle
noun
1. a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:03 am
Btw, is that zero probability of reality being mind-based?
Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 am
However you dichotomize it, minds are reality-based.
And what exactly is “reality”?
Are you talking about the “reality” of our universe?
Are you talking about a reality that (according to certain interpretations of quantum mechanics) seems to be composed of nothing more than nebulous fields of energy and information that yield-forth three-dimensional phenomena via its interaction with consciousness?
Again (and based on some of our prior conversations), just as you so jadedly take for granted and brush aside the miraculous manifestation of your own personal consciousness, likewise, you also appear to take for granted the fidelity (firmness/certainty) of reality itself...
...a reality that, upon deeper inspection, seems to be “dream-like” in its makeup (as in not as
real as our arbitrary definition of the word “real” deems it to be).
So again I ask you, what is “reality”?
seeds wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:03 am
Or is it zero probability of there being anything higher in consciousness than humans?
Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 am
I could never accept that conclusion as a zero probability since we don't know what nature can produce by way of consciousness or to what degree.
If you admit that we do not know what nature can produce by way of consciousness and, especially, to what degree...
...then you simply have no business presuming that nature** could not produce a self-aware, incorporeal mind that is capable of creating a universe out of the living mental fabric of its own personal being...
...(which is precisely what certain spiritual concepts of God imply).
**Keep in mind that “nature”...
(or whatever the driving impetus is that sits at the foundation of “ultimate reality” itself)
...could have been functioning (churning out consciousness) so far back into the infinite past that it would make the mere 13.8 billion years of this universe seem like a blink of an eye in comparison.
Which means that it (nature/consciousness/life/mind) has had plenty of time (literally forever, in fact) to evolve into universe creating levels of being.
Now of course you don't have to believe such a thing, but can you at least be open to the possibility?
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