Virgin Birth Myths

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:51 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:41 pm I think you are sincerely unaware of why you re wrong. All you read me write is support of Plato's cave allegory.
No, that is not "all" you write, Nick. You tell people what they are, what they think, what they believe, and what they want. Can you admit that you do that? Those are your projections, Nick, and you are wrong. Can you admit that you don't know other people in such detailed ways, and that you are applying a MODEL (from your own head) on top of them? Yet you continue doing this even when people tell you that your accusations are wrong. Do you agree that you do that? So, HOW are people wrong about what you are doing in regard to them?
No, I'm simply in agreement with Plato's assertion that we live in imagination described by Plato as if in a cave attached to shadows on the wall interpreted by imagination. What we think, value, and believe, are the results of conditioned existence. So rather than arguing beliefs, I support the efforts of those leading the cause of awakening to reality. Without admitting our slavery to imagination we remain in psychological slavery reacting to the shadows on the wall and arguing opinions.
Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:16 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:51 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:41 pm I think you are sincerely unaware of why you re wrong. All you read me write is support of Plato's cave allegory.
No, that is not "all" you write, Nick. You tell people what they are, what they think, what they believe, and what they want. Can you admit that you do that? Those are your projections, Nick, and you are wrong. Can you admit that you don't know other people in such detailed ways, and that you are applying a MODEL (from your own head) on top of them? Yet you continue doing this even when people tell you that your accusations are wrong. Do you agree that you do that? So, HOW are people wrong about what you are doing in regard to them?
Nick, you cannot get through to a closed mind.

I for one Dontaskme, have never once thought those thoughts about you.... the ones LW has mentioned above..don't believe Nick..don't believe these paranoid deluded thoughts Nick...there not yours.

They hate your message Nick..but I love it, you are only saying out loud what other people only ever think about but are too afraid to say out loud for fear of what other people might think of them..you know the game they are playing... All these people are doing is thinking about how much they are hurting from this messenger for truth and justice, because truth tellers tell the truth, they do not BS around, but you are hurting others by disclosing what they don't want to hear...they don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves...and blame you for all the hurting...if they didn't believe any of it was true, they would not be hurting...but they are clearly hurting...it's pathetic.

.
It isn't pathetic any more than a broken leg is pathetic. It is the unfortunate result of the human condition. If you are open to Simone Weil's observation a lot of this apparent chaos will begin to make sense. The purpose of real philosophy and the essence of religion is to allow the mind to open. The purpose of modern philosophy and secularized and new age religion is to provide answers that close the mind in favor of consolation and self justification. That is why the true seeker of truth must develop inner taste to distinguish the wheat from the tares if they indeed need to experience what they are in the context of the potential for human "being."
Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 417
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Lacewing
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:31 pm What we think, value, and believe, are the results of conditioned existence. So rather than arguing beliefs, I support the efforts of those leading the cause of awakening to reality.
So you show no respect to that which other people know as truth for themselves, correct?

From your perspective, your view is the only correct and valuable view, correct?
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:31 pm Without admitting our slavery to imagination we remain in psychological slavery reacting to the shadows on the wall and arguing opinions.
And you don't recognize this behavior in yourself, correct?
Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
But Jesus chose to sacrifice himself as the Lamb of God. Some small child dying of cancer did not choose to sacrifice himself. God chose to impregnate Mary, but chose not to save the child dying from cancer.

How does God select which miracles to perform? Ah yes, I remember now; God moves in mysterious ways which I cannot understand.
The crucifixion was a conscious sacrifice for the sake of opening a conscious path for conscious evolution that with the help of the Spirit those open to it could follow. The conscious descent into our world is only possible within the limitations of universal laws. Again you are concerned with the human body and its personality while Jesus' purpose was to awaken those with the potential to carry their cross for the sake of their being.
Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:18 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:31 pm What we think, value, and believe, are the results of conditioned existence. So rather than arguing beliefs, I support the efforts of those leading the cause of awakening to reality.
So you show no respect to that which other people know as truth for themselves, correct?

From your perspective, your view is the only correct and valuable view, correct?
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:31 pm Without admitting our slavery to imagination we remain in psychological slavery reacting to the shadows on the wall and arguing opinions.
And you don't recognize this behavior in yourself, correct?
I am always interested in what people have verified through impartial efforts to know thyself - to have the actual experience of oneself rather than imagine it and escape into analysis of imagination. The hard part is finding them.

Of course I have the tendency to want to argue opinions. My advantage over you is having a taste of what it denies me.

How many are capable of admitting their nothingness and that they are the wretched man? Without this realistic foundation a person becomes lost in self justifying opinions.
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Lacewing
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Lacewing »

Nick, THANK YOU for your thoughtful and honest response!
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:29 pm I am always interested in what people have verified through impartial efforts to know thyself - to have the actual experience of oneself rather than imagine it and escape into analysis of imagination. The hard part is finding them.
Well, I do this, and I share it, but it is not in your language, and there are variations of meaning. I understand why anything other than your own language might not appeal to you -- because we love our own languages -- still, I'm surprised you deny the COMMON ESSENCE. I see it in you and I see it in DAM, even though I don't share your varying languages/methodologies. A denial of another's essence (which you and DAM seem inclined to do), perhaps in favor of elevating your own language/methodology (and therefore, yourselves), is a red flag for me... that says something "else" is involved... an agenda or payoff of some kind. That's reasonable to consider/investigate, isn't it?
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:29 pm Of course I have the tendency to want to argue opinions. My advantage over you is having a taste of what it denies me.
How do you know that I do not know such a thing for myself? Again, because I don't speak your language? I absolutely do know such a thing for myself. But, I don't view the world and reality as you do -- so I don't assign the same implications. I recognize the pitfalls and the intoxication -- while I also recognize the divine and the perfection -- throughout ALL.
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:29 pm How many are capable of admitting their nothingness and that they are the wretched man? Without this realistic foundation a person becomes lost in self justifying opinions.
I am nothing; I am not wretched. Who are we to know what people are or need to be in this life? Wouldn't you agree that there is much more going on than what is visible on the surface? Personally, I don't see ANY of it as NOT being the "face/potential of God", so-to-speak. And that's why I don't believe in a god, because I think ALL is ONE -- there is no separateness for "a god" to exist separately.

I'm not trying to change your mind about what works for YOU -- I am just asking you to consider that there is MORE that is divine here, than you have shown to recognize or acknowledge. (Why would you resist that? :lol: ) Just because there are different languages being spoken, doesn't mean that you, alone, are aware. "God" would just NOT be that SMALL, SURELY!!!

Does what I'm saying make sense to you? Can you hear me and see value without superimposing your particular model/language in such a way as to suffocate all else? Can't "essence" be talked about in many different languages without arguing over the language?
Last edited by Lacewing on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Greta
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Greta »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:24 pm
Greta wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:59 am Further, to posit that the virgin birth is real from this inherently weak position that is simply superstitious, nothing more.
Greta, do you even know what the heck you are talking about?
Of course not, but I have much more of an idea than you do.
Dontaskme wrote:To imply that a birth is real - one must have first account witnessing that such an event took place, namely, their own birth.
Yes, I can see how a zygote, embryo or foetus might have a little difficulty with abstract concepts.
Dontaskme wrote:To imply that a death is real - one must have first account witnessing that such an event took place, namely, their own death.
This deserves a test.

I suggest that you go stand in the middle of a busy highway and test the concept of death. Since you've not experienced it, it might not happen.
Dontaskme wrote:Conclusion..birth and death are illusions.
You'd best let Nick know about this - I agree with you that virgin births are illusory.
Dontaskme wrote:No one, has ever been born or has ever died. There is only life living itself, all alone, all one without a second.
Sure. 13.8b years ago we were all some strange state of compressed plasma, probably a superfluid of sorts. Four billion years ago we were microbes. Now we are a range of critters, ranging from microbe to spacefaring hominid. Tomorrow we will probably be machines.

However, DAM, we will all snuff it and no perspective shifting will change that that as we gasp and choke on our last breath.
Science Fan
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Science Fan »

If religious people really believe virgins can get pregnant, then why are they spending their time promoting abstinence as a method for birth control?
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Lacewing
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Lacewing »

Science Fan wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:08 pm If religious people really believe virgins can get pregnant, then why are they spending their time promoting abstinence as a method for birth control?
:lol: :lol:
Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing
Well, I do this, and I share it, but it is not in your language, and there are variations of meaning. I understand why anything other than your own language might not appeal to you -- because we love our own languages -- still, I'm surprised you deny the COMMON ESSENCE. I see it in you and I see it in DAM, even though I don't share your varying languages/methodologies. A denial of another's essence (which you and DAM seem inclined to do), perhaps in favor of elevating your own language/methodology (and therefore, yourselves), is a red flag for me... that says something "else" is involved... an agenda or payoff of some kind. That's reasonable to consider/investigate, isn't it?
I know this will appear elitist but I do not believe we have a common essence. I believe we are all essentially different. For some reason this is considered a threatening attitude and some may want to consider themselves “better” because of it. But in reality respecting differences is a strength of character. It is PC to say we are all the same. But all this attitude does is deny the normal respect for differences

As I’ve said many times it is important to me to interact with those who know that it is essential if humanity is to survive, that the complimentary relationship between science and the essence of religion be better respected in society as a whole. That is one reason why I admire those like Einstein, Jacob Needleman, and Simone Weil. They understand this. In fact those like Simone and Jacob Needleman are even more important because they were atheists who gradually through sincere experience opened their minds. These people who have experienced both are as valuable as they are rare for those drawn to the experience of the quality of truth which reconciles the complimentary truths of science and religion.

The best alternative is often just to live a good life and not bother with these concerns. These are fine people They do not hurt themselves inwardly. But what of these talented ones who are called to experience what most are oblivious of? They are shunned by dominant secularism.
"Pity them my children, they are far from home and no one knows them. Let those in quest of God be careful lest appearances deceive them in these people who are peculiar and hard to place; no one rightly knows them but those in whom the same light shines" ~ Meister Eckhart
They will be misunderstood and ridiculed in modern secular society as different but I will continue to support them and those who support them
I am nothing; I am not wretched. Who are we to know what people are or need to be in this life? Wouldn't you agree that there is much more going on than what is visible on the surface? Personally, I don't see ANY of it as NOT being the "face/potential of God", so-to-speak. And that's why I don't believe in a god, because I think ALL is ONE -- there is no separateness for "a god" to exist separately.
Of course there is more going on than what appears on the surface expressed by our personality but we are also different underneath. Do we have to condemn it or can those who are more opened minded learn to respect and value essential differences?
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Science Fan »

Nick A: You still claiming that we need science fused with religion? Since Einstein made his admitted greatest blunder by trying to fuse the two, Einstein is a perfect example of why we should never do this. Not to mention, Einstein's view of religion made most religious fundies cringe, as he defined religion something closer to philosophy than what we would consider to be religion in the modern west.

Science should be left alone to engage in its explanations of how the world actually works. Science does not make any claims about value judgments, despite the rhetoric of Sam Harris to the contrary, it is not the job of science to tell us right from wrong. This leaves room for other disciplines to address those questions, like philosophy, which can take into account the facts of science in coming up with moral arguments, which is what people like Peter Singer try to do. But, this is far different from fusing science with religion. That should never be done.
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Greta
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Greta »

Hey Nick, grand words, but none of it resolves the absurdity of virgin births, resurrections, arks with pairs of all species or people residing for months in the stomach acid of a whale.

It is the very literal misinterpretation of the ancients' metaphorical language, that prevents an effective marriage of the best parts of science and religion. This is exacerbated by a lack or awareness of the culturally specific aspects of religious texts and also of the mistakes the ancients made through lack of knowledge or experience.

Lacewing wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:21 pm
Science Fan wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:08 pmIf religious people really believe virgins can get pregnant, then why are they spending their time promoting abstinence as a method for birth control?
:lol: :lol:
Ha! Yet the idea is to create as much life as possible - to "respect the cycle" as a forum member put it.

Thus, logically, the decision to abstain from sex is inherently evil and anti-life, denying new fledgling souls from an existence just as much as any first term abortion. You could say that conservatives demanding abstinence in young people are mass murderers, denying the world of millions of young lives! As we all know, the world desperately needs many more people. Apparently there's a patch of land in Mongolia that's not yet been developed so there's still plenty of room for everyone. Let's hope that virgin births don't catch on or even the Gobi Desert won't be enough to sustain the new arrivals.
Dubious
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

Post by Dubious »

Greta wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:43 pm Let's hope that virgin births don't catch on or even the Gobi Desert won't be enough to sustain the new arrivals.
:lol: :lol: That's a good one! I like that! But you have to remember that the NICK program is broken subroutine which regardless of input always yields the same output.
Nick_A
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

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Science Fan wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:38 pm Nick A: You still claiming that we need science fused with religion? Since Einstein made his admitted greatest blunder by trying to fuse the two, Einstein is a perfect example of why we should never do this. Not to mention, Einstein's view of religion made most religious fundies cringe, as he defined religion something closer to philosophy than what we would consider to be religion in the modern west.

Science should be left alone to engage in its explanations of how the world actually works. Science does not make any claims about value judgments, despite the rhetoric of Sam Harris to the contrary, it is not the job of science to tell us right from wrong. This leaves room for other disciplines to address those questions, like philosophy, which can take into account the facts of science in coming up with moral arguments, which is what people like Peter Singer try to do. But, this is far different from fusing science with religion. That should never be done.
You have a need to be told what to do but what of those who strive to remember how to be? What to do comes naturally for those having learned how to be. But most like you, Greta, and the majority of the secular world need to be told what to do. I prefer to know and learn from those with experience as to how to be. Perhaps if you respected what was necessary to learn how to be, what makes the virgin birth possible would not appear so odd.
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Lacewing
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Re: Virgin Birth Myths

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:30 pm I know this will appear elitist but I do not believe we have a common essence.
Fascinating... okay.
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:30 pm It is PC to say we are all the same. But all this attitude does is deny the normal respect for differences
Do you realize that I didn't say we were all the same? That's very different than sharing/experiencing/seeing a common essence, yes? I'm trying to ensure we don't confuse the meaning of this. Of course there must be respect for differences -- that is what I was asking of you in my previous post.

Some people (like me) actually see everything as connected. That's not about being PC. And it's not even outrageous, considering the natural web of life that we can see everywhere we look.
Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:30 pm As I’ve said many times it is important to me to interact with those who know that it is essential if humanity is to survive, that the complimentary relationship between science and the essence of religion be better respected in society as a whole.
What is the essence of religion but spirit? What is everything in religion supposedly pointing to... rules or spirit? The rules are a way of guiding people to spirit, right? And what is spirit other than a common essence... which you don't believe in? I know a lot of people who combine/respect science and SPIRIT -- both of which are nature-oriented -- so, that makes sense to me. Can you see? But science and "religion" is more like combining fact and fiction. Religion is about ideology -- and ideology is not spirit. What are your thoughts on that distinction? Is your focus on ideology or spirit?
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