God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 1273
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:40 pm

1) Necessity implies existence, as necessity is an extension of existence.
_____a) Can something be necessary and not exist?
_____b) If necessity is not met existence ceases?

2) However existence itself is not entirely necessary as necessity is a grade of existence.

3) However, considering "necessity" is necessary for "necessity", necessity is existence.

4) Existence is both necessary (+N) and non-necessary (-N) as a dualism.

5) Existence as both +N and -N, or ±N, observes Necessity as a neutral possibility in which it may exist at any given space/time locality. Necessity is possibilistic, in that it may exist under certain conditions. Something "May be" necessary in time, however its certainty (or limit) is not established yet.

6) This possible nature exists if and only if their is limit, for possibility is the observation of absence of limit. As an absence of limit it exists if and only if their is a limit. This limit is neutral.

7) In these respects "existence as necessity": exists , does not exist, may exist and is a limiting dimension in itself at the same time in different respects, different respects at the same time and different respects at different times. Something may exist even though it is Unnecessary.

8 ) God's existence does not depend on necessity, hence argument's about God's existence dependent on "necessity" are void in certain respects as existence is not limited to necessity.



On a practical note how many times has some phenomena come into existence which has been deemed unnecessary? And yet it still exists.

focusinc
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:28 pm

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by focusinc » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:06 pm

1) Necessity implies existence, as necessity is an extension of existence.


Conciousness/Awareness/Existence are necessary for everything.

So i'll just give you #3 you don't have to earn it.
Existence is both necessary (+N) and non-necessary (-N) as a dualism.
Why do you believe the arising mind is two?

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 1273
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:57 pm

focusinc wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:06 pm
1) Necessity implies existence, as necessity is an extension of existence.


Conciousness/Awareness/Existence are necessary for everything.

So i'll just give you #3 you don't have to earn it.
Existence is both necessary (+N) and non-necessary (-N) as a dualism.
Why do you believe the arising mind is two?

Because of point 2. Necessity is a gradation of existence, that while is necessary in itself, does not encapsulate existence. Is existence necessary for existence? Under this premise question, both yes and no. The law of identity observes this necessity, to a degree, however it simultaneously seperates existence from existence through necessity.

This point may be confusing so I will give the following example: "A" and "A = A" are both different terms. While "A" can be observed for what it is, "A =A" observes a dualism in not only terms but concepts as well considering both "A" and "=" are introduced. In these respects a logistic atomization occurs through a process of individuation where "A" is separated into "A,A" and "=". "=" exists as the relation of "A" to "A", however for this relation to exist a process of movement through relation as individuation must occur. In these respects the law of identity is as much a law about relativity as it is about identity.

The problem occurs in the respect that relativity, or relation, requires at minimum a dualism of units-particulates and in these respect is a perpetual negation of "unity" through "unit".

In simpler terms existence, or God as the argument suggests, transcends necessity.
Another question, relative to your point: "Is consciousness necessary?"

focusinc
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:28 pm

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by focusinc » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:10 pm

It seems to me consciousness is necessary for dualism, but conscious itself is not dual. The one splitting consciousness into two cannot see itself as one when doing so (post cognition). When the mind is at rest consciousness cannot observe it's own mind because it is one. It's paradoxical in the sense that to observe consciousness you must make an object of it, but the observer itself is also consciousness. Like following a tree trunk up to it's branches , it is still a tree, but now you have separated it by looking at the branches.

A = A do you mean this to be 'A is A because' then yes that would be dual. However, you can say A = A, accept it and the concept will collapse to one. You no longer have to make an inference when you have no more doubt about it.

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 1273
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:36 pm

focusinc wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:10 pm
It seems to me consciousness is necessary for dualism, but conscious itself is not dual.
Consciousness as constant and changing observes a dualism at minimum. Consciousness as "observing" is constant, what consciousness observes however is changing.

The one splitting consciousness into two cannot see itself as one when doing so (post cognition).
Consciousness as "unity through self-reflection" and consciousness as "multiplicity through the observation of time" is consciousness as a duality. The synthesis of the "one" and the "many" observes consciousness as the synthesis of dimension for dimension is the boundary between "one" and "many" which simultaneously gives root to them while being neither.

The one as intradimensional (self-reflecting and constant as logistic holism) and the many as extradimensional (relating and changing through logistic atoms) is synthesized under a neutral "dimension" (or direction of observation) which provides the third aspect of consciousness as both a neutral limit (that exists dually as both the one and the many) and possible further limit (no-limit) which is the observation of "centers".

Consciousness as the synthesis of dimension, or direction of observation as spatial awareness, as "no-limit" is not necessary in itself as it lacks any dimension to it. Existence as a center point lacks necessity as it lack boundaries, or structure, required for "necessity". "Necessity" is relative to structure, but consciousness transcends structure while simultaneously allowing it for what it is.

If this makes any sense...I might have to clarify some points.


When the mind is at rest consciousness cannot observe it's own mind because it is one. It's paradoxical in the sense that to observe consciousness you must make an object of it, but the observer itself is also consciousness. Like following a tree trunk up to it's branches , it is still a tree, but now you have separated it by looking at the branches.

A = A do you mean this to be 'A is A because' then yes that would be dual. However, you can say A = A, accept it and the concept will collapse to one. You no longer have to make an inference when you have no more doubt about it.

"A=A" "collapsing into one" implies a separation. However you are correct. "A=A" observes a dualism of unity and multiplicity as a separation is implies through "=" which act simultaneously as a dual term. While "A" in both the example of "A" and the example of "A=A" is unity in itself. The observation of "A=A" observes "A" relating to itself through "=" with individuates "A" into "A,A".

focusinc
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:28 pm

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by focusinc » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:44 pm

What do you mean, 'Consciousness as constant and changing'?

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 1273
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:55 pm

focusinc wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:44 pm
What do you mean, 'Consciousness as constant and changing'?
It is unified in the sense it is self-reflective, or directed into itself.

It is multiple in nature, or changing, as it exhibit a dual extramensional nature in which it projects past its own origins to observe the world around it.

It is unified and constant in its awareness of itself.

It is changing through its observation of external movement as movement (or temporality) which simultaneously changes it.

This changing nature of consciousness is conducive to its limit of unity, or the limit of self-reflection. However because it exists primarily through self-reflection, and time is relative, the consciousness technically is aware of all things at once. It is its awareness of movement (which technically already occurred when viewed from a 1d perspective) that exists as its limit.

In simple terms, the consciousness is aware of what the consciousness is aware of, considering time is relative. Change is the limit of the unity within consciousness, and what appears as change one day, in fact existed all along.

In simple terms, we already made our choices in what we observed (as observation is the root of experience through all senses and actions), and what we doing is understanding them as a form of actualization.

Again, if that makes any sense, I might have to clarify some points...long day.

focusinc
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:28 pm

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by focusinc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:01 am

So you're saying consciousness is constant because it's always observing, but changing because what it observes is constantly changing?

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 1273
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:39 pm

focusinc wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:01 am
So you're saying consciousness is constant because it's always observing, but changing because what it observes is constantly changing?
Yes to a degree.

But what is observes often times is frequency as a constant, when viewed 1 dimensionally, or "change" when viewed through the multiple dimensions of time and space.

Take for instance the observing of a habit, say making a cup of coffee in the morning. This habit, through frequency, manifests itself across time space through a process of repetition. Now this habit, rooted in observation, in turn ingrains itself into the act of observation itself. The process becomes second nature, or inherent, within the act of observation (sensory experience, motor movement, etc.) In these respects, this habit, manifests itself across time/space as inherent within the nature of the consciousness itself, when looked at from a single dimension.

From the perspective of a single dimension this habit (as a way of perceiving conducive to observation) always exists, yet what we observe in developing it is an form of approximation through movement. I either make the cup of coffee or I do not. Two conceptual dimensions which alternate giving the impression of change. Now while making the coffee, I do x,y,z, with each of these steps merely being alternations, as frequencies which give the impression of "change". It is the relation of dimensions, as particles of a whole, which give the appearance of time. Seperation is change.

So what we observe as "change", is merely a deficiency within observation, for it we look at what the consciousness is aware of, from a single dimension, the habit of making a cup of coffee is inherent within the act of awareness as it is a change in perception. It is always there. Perception, how we view reality, is inherent within the skill sets we embody.

Not to sound metaphorical, or deep, but time (I believe) may be viewed as the womb of eternity in which eternity exists as one perpetual movement (which does not move as it goes only into itself) of "fruition" or "birthing".

focusinc
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:28 pm

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by focusinc » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:59 pm

What came to mind is St Paul in Romans 8:22

For we know that all creation has been groaning as in pains of childbirth right up to this present moment.

RustyBert
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:25 pm

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by RustyBert » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:14 pm

The first rule of playing philospher like this is to define your terms. That's so we can all agree that you're not just playing word games. And your very first point is vague without definitions, so seems like word games. But I could be wrong. So tell us your definition of "necessity" without using the concept of "existence". (otherwise your first point is circular).

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 1273
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: God Exists Because God is Unnecessary.

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:40 pm

RustyBert wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:14 pm
The first rule of playing philospher like this is to define your terms.
Is that "the" rule, or "your" rule? If it is "the" rule, maybe you could direct me to a source to elaborate your point and give it definition.

That's so we can all agree that you're not just playing word games.
Focusinc seemed to agree in some respects, is it a minority or majority consensus that determines truth?

And your very first point is vague without definitions, so seems like word games. But I could be wrong. So tell us your definition of "necessity" without using the concept of "existence". (otherwise your first point is circular).
Look in a dictionary and observe all definitions are in themselves circular.

The progression of necessity and existence, stems from the fact that all necessity is merely an observation of existence requiring a further relation in order to exist. What is deemed as necessary is a form of existence that must relate to another existence in order for both to exist.

Take for example the necessity of eating food. It is necessary because unless I eat, I cease to exist. Yet the food must exist in order for another existence, myself, to existence under its current terms.

Or I can just take it from the dictionary to enforce my point:


"the fact of being required or indispensable"


"a state of things or circumstances enforcing a certain course"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=necessity ... 9A5E1B9BF7

The problem with the relativistic approach that all things must be defined in order to exist, is that this in itself is taken as axiomatic and is not defined...according to its own terms.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests