God is testing us all

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:17 pm

NSKimura wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:42 pm
a teacher who knows very well who will pass/fail an exam, will nevertheless test her students, despite what he knows about them, so too does God test us in life even thought he knows who will pass/fail.

He got me good with this one at that moment. I could see the analogy but couldn't carry it all the way to absurdity or show that there was a dis-analogy.
I have a different rebuttal, and you are free and welcome to use it in the argument.

A teacher tests her students despite knowing ahead of time how each will perform, because s/he, the teacher, needs a paper trail to prove that her/his assigning marks was not purely random or arbitrary. S/he has to show to the school board, on the occasional audit, many things, including why students got grades that they have.

Another reason to keep a paper trail of her / his work and decisions is to fend off irate parents or guardians or students themselves. "Why did I get partial marks only on question three?" asks the student. The teacher replies, "Because aplusbtimesaminusb is asquareaminusbsquare, and not what you wrote, asquareminustwoabplusbsquare."

But, presumably, there is no audit checking god's work, so there is no need for testing, really.
Last edited by -1- on Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:21 pm

NSKimura wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:05 pm
I don't just dismiss what you say as absurd, I give you reasons why. No reasonable person would believe that the claim that "X created Y and X proved to Y and to himself that Y exists" is not nonsense. If I exist I don't need anything or anyone to prove to me that I exist. If I create something and cause it to exist I don't need to prove to myself or it that it exists because it existed the moment I created it.
I haven't read what JohnDoe7 wrote, but it is conceivable that god tests people to allow people prove to themselves that god exists.

God (or the meme that we attribute to a fanciful existence called god) is inconsistent with his own promise and teaching, the tests are inconclusive, so the test shows that there is no god.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by attofishpi » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:51 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:21 pm
God (or the meme that we attribute to a fanciful existence called god) is inconsistent with his own promise and teaching, the tests are inconclusive, so the test shows that there is no god.
The TEST_amen_T is key to comprehension. Please explain what proves there is NO God.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:51 pm
The TEST_amen_T is key to comprehension. Please explain what proves there is NO God.
Nothing proves there is no god. Nothing proves there is god.

Not empirically, not theoretically. Both stances are unprovable, and un-disprovable.

TEST-amen-T is a clever decomposition of the root word; of course you are aware that in different languages the same sort of decomposition is meaningless, so I think you put the cart in front of the horse. Interestingly, in this instance, the decomposition is similar in the foreign languages I know; and that's because "amen" is an international Latin word, and "test" has become internationalized via English-language dominance.

(Many words of current English have become internationalized. In German TV used to be Fernsehgeraht, and tank (the armoured vehicle) used to be called Grabenschutzenschiessenpanzerkraftwagen. I kid you not.)

Oh, I get it. When I said "this shows there is no god" you thought I said "this proves there is no god."

Showing and proving are different concepts. Proving means there is no exception to it. Showing means that here is an example that speaks (for or against) an opinion. In this light, you ask me to say what shows that there is no god.

Please note that below, I use the word god, but from my perspective, it ought to be understood as "The god meme."

1. God is the most virtuous of all creatures.
2. Therefore god always speaks the truth.
3. And god always keeps his promises.
4. He promised that to worship god and to obey his commands, and circumcision, by Jewish people, guarantees god's protection of the Jewish people.
5. Job kept his side of the bargain.
6. God gave exactly the opposite of protection to Job: Job lost his wife, his sons died, his livestock was taken from him, he got ill, he became dirt poor. This is not protection.
7. Job and god got into an argument over this.
8. Nobody won the argument, except I.
9. There may be promises in the bible that good things come to those who follow Jesus and his teaching.
10. Good and bad things are very clearly not dished out to people according to who loves Jesus and accepts his way.
11. Proof of point ten: many Christians suffer in this world, and many non-Christians prosper in every way imaginable.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by attofishpi » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:16 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:51 pm
The TEST_amen_T is key to comprehension. Please explain what proves there is NO God.
Nothing proves there is no god. Nothing proves there is god.

Not empirically, not theoretically. Both stances are unprovable, and un-disprovable.
Empirically it can be proven to an individual. But yes, atheism is unprovable.
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
TEST-amen-T is a clever decomposition of the root word; of course you are aware that in different languages the same sort of decomposition is meaningless, so I think you put the cart in front of the horse. Interestingly, in this instance, the decomposition is similar in the foreign languages I know; and that's because "amen" is an international Latin word, and "test" has become internationalized via English-language dominance.
The English language is the common protocol for communication around the planet, it's interesting that God has convoluted this language via the minds of man into it's current form, leaving a host of anomalies.
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
Oh, I get it. When I said "this shows there is no god" you thought I said "this proves there is no god."
Showing and proving are different concepts. Proving means there is no exception to it. Showing means that here is an example that speaks (for or against) an opinion. In this light, you ask me to say what shows that there is no god.
Sometime things are implied, as in this case you implied 'showing' as 'proving'.
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
Please note that below, I use the word god, but from my perspective, it ought to be understood as "The god meme."

1. God is the most virtuous of all creatures.
Do you consider the backbone entity to all reality as a creature?
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
2. Therefore god always speaks the truth.
If God is a man - Christ for example, then no. In fact God is quite the deceiver, from experience.
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
3. And god always keeps his promises.
Does it? Where are you getting this idea?
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
4. He promised that to worship god and to obey his commands, and circumcision, by Jewish people, guarantees god's protection of the Jewish people.
Certainly the Jews were the first to comprehend the entity, via it interacting with some of them. But they still wish for their messiah, Je Wish. I Wish...little French anomaly there.
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
5. Job kept his side of the bargain.
Buy bull parables, not worth than more than a gander.
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
6. God gave exactly the opposite of protection to Job: Job lost his wife, his sons died, his livestock was taken from him, he got ill, he became dirt poor. This is not protection.
7. Job and god got into an argument over this.
8. Nobody won the argument, except I.
9. There may be promises in the bible that good things come to those who follow Jesus and his teaching.
10. Good and bad things are very clearly not dished out to people according to who loves Jesus and accepts his way.
11. Proof of point ten: many Christians suffer in this world, and many non-Christians prosper in every way imaginable.
Don't you think the term 'SALVATION' is somewhat ironic. What are we to be saved from exactly? What is this ALL powerful God or indeed Christ, saving us from? The alpha and the omega is the ultimate reality of it, so who or what do we ultimately require salvation from?
...the wrath of God.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by Dubious » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:22 pm

Dear God...

...it's time to turn the tables by reverentially asking you to confirm YOUR existence because WE obviously can't! Every time we try it ends up in some stupid philosophic quagmire, no doubt a source of comedy for you if you actually exist. So if you're testing us that implies your interest in us which in turn implies you shouldn't be living in another universe while ruling this one. An occasional confirmation of your whereabouts by taking a holiday in the one WE live in - just to confirm there is indeed a Landlord somewhere in the ether - means more to us than merely discovering another alien civilization or two. Until then, don't bother testing us if you're going to be sneaky about it!

For those who still insist on your presence in the midst of eternal silence, we'll be using the proxy designed by Stephen Colbert. For most on this planet Credo quia absurdum is no-longer viable. If you haven't yet noticed, it's high-time you turned your Incognito into a Cogito if you wish to regain some credibility. If not, it's been nice knowing what we never knew!

Btw, how's the climate in your corner of the multiverse :?: :twisted:

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by attofishpi » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:23 am

Hahaha! Well said, how could God refuse that! I would add though, um God, if you do reveal your existence to Dubious, please be gentle..

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by Dubious » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:11 am

attofishpi wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:23 am
Hahaha! Well said, how could God refuse that! I would add though, um God, if you do reveal your existence to Dubious, please be gentle..
Does that mean I have to be in a car crash instead of falling off a horse to get the message? Besides my "appeal" was ecumenical not personal. If god reveals ITS existence to the world that would relieve the burden of any one individual having to convince everyone else to buy into it. A god agent should not be like a Fuller Brush salesman! Why does god always have to be so choosey?

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:25 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:16 pm

Empirically it can be proven to an individual. But yes, atheism is unprovable.
I don't accept that. Empirically you can be shown a god image, but that could be a man-made three-d holographic image. You could slpit the earth and show a three-D hologrpahic image of god, and claim that was god, but it wasn't. You could make the moon collide with the sun in the sky, and it could be done by mechanical means.

There is nothing you can show to the senses that can absolutely and irrefutably prove that it's god's presence you are experiencing. If you don't have belief, then no empirical phenomenon can convince you.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:40 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:16 pm
The English language is the common protocol for communication around the planet, it's interesting that God has convoluted this language via the minds of man into it's current form, leaving a host of anomalies.
English is the dominant language. Now.

So it has been for the last 200 years.

Before that it was French, before that, it was Latin.

Before Latin, it was Greek.

It is indeed a huge leap of faith to say that the English language was shaped by god to be in the shape that it is today. There is no evidence to show that; other than fantasy.

If that's what you believe, so be it. However, don't expect too many of your fellow human beings to buy that.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:47 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:16 pm
Sometime things are implied, as in this case you implied 'showing' as 'proving'.
No, no, not at all. You are trying to save your skin by trying to explain what I meant was different from what I said.

Nobody will accept that argument except you.

I used proper English, to express properly and precisely my opinion. If your English comprehension is poorer, which in this particular case might be the case, that's not my fault.

I am not dissing your English knowledge. I am only saying that you can't arbitrarily alter the meaning of what I said to a meaning you allege I had in mind originally. If that were acceptable, then I could say that all your words on this forum mean that you believe in no god, or gods, and you are just poorly expressing yourself. The two are equivalent.

You see, you have to give the benefit of the doubt that your debating partner means what he says. I meant what I said, I did not mean something different. It is in your fantasy world only that you imagine that.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:52 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:16 pm
If God is a man - Christ for example, then no. In fact God is quite the deceiver, from experience.
You deny therefore that your alleged god is virtuous. If he lies, he is uttering false witness. You trust a liar? You respect a liar? How can you say that your god is a despicable, cheating, lying creature? You will burn in hellfire for ever and ever for not admitting that god is ethically the most superior being. Your god.

If you accept that god is virtuous, then you can't accept that he is lying.

If you don't accept that god is virtuous, then you insult god (not humanity. You insult god).

Which one is it, Attofishpi?

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:56 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:16 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
3. And god always keeps his promises.
Does it? Where are you getting this idea?
It follows from the covenant. If he does not, as you say, then he is again breaking all kinds of moral codes. That is what you admit when you admit he does not keep his promises. But he is virtuous. So which is it? A virtuous god who is inconsistent with the image he made us believe of him, or eternal hellfire for you, for decrying his honour? Either way, there is a dichotomy which you can't explain here, Attofishpi.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:00 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:16 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm
5. Job kept his side of the bargain.
Buy bull parables, not worth than more than a gander.
Hoo, boy, are you ever cherry-picking. Typical of bible-thumpers. Believe in one part of the bible, but not believe another part? How does this work? For a mathematician, for instance? "I believe that 5+5=10, but I reject that 5x5=25, because that would destroy my proof."

That's what cherry pickers of the bible do: if they are cornered by a self-contradicion in the bible, they simply glide over it.

You can't do that with me, sorry. You either accpet the entire bible as a the word of god, or you reject it, but you can't accept parts of it and rejects other parts of it. That's the entire point.

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Re: God is testing us all

Post by -1- » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:06 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:16 pm
Don't you think the term 'SALVATION' is somewhat ironic. What are we to be saved from exactly? What is this ALL powerful God or indeed Christ, saving us from? The alpha and the omega is the ultimate reality of it, so who or what do we ultimately require salvation from?
...the wrath of God.
You're right, all evil and all suffering originates in god if you accept the bible's teachings.

Many christians deny that. I am glad you don't.

But it does not explain the events in the book of Job.

So far you did the following in your counter-argument:

You declared that what I said I did not mean.

You declared that your god is a morally despicable creature. It lies and it breaks its own promises.

You deny of significance of the parts of the bible that don't fit your arbitrary imagination and fantasy how things are.

In the end you redeem some of your points, by accepting what most if not all other Christians reject.

In other words, you can't get out of the mess you found yourself in, except by dubious means, and by means that defile your own god.

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