The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Reflex
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by Reflex » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:52 am

Good one, Nick.

Dontaskme
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:21 am

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:32 am

As I understand it, God IS. God IS NOW. NOW by definition is not limited by time and space. Creation in contrast is a process taking place within NOW. The relative perception of linear time is an attribute of the process creation. However vertical time is an attribute of NOW making necessary the process of creation and manifestations of fractions of the whole. We normally assume that being moves through time but actually the perception of linear time moves through being, through NOW
Excellent post.

Intelligence at it’s finest.

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bahman
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by bahman » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:01 pm

thedoc wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:59 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:09 pm
thedoc wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:27 pm


Who's definition, if your's, why should anyone else accept it?
God, uncaused cause, is a solution to infinite regress which exists in linear causal relation.
Yes, "a solution" to infinite regress which is in linear causal relation, a part of human logic, but you haven't demonstrated that God must obey your laws of logic, or any laws of logic, you have just implied that God does. You have made claims about the nature of God, so you bear the burden of proof.
Why bother to discuss anything related to God at all then.

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bahman
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by bahman » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:03 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:32 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:49 pm
There are two states of affairs when it comes to act creation. These two state of affair are: (1) God only and (2) God and creation. The second state of affair follows the first one so there must be a substance which separate these state of affairs so called time, otherwise the act of creation is ill-defined. Either time is a emergent phenomena related to act of creation or not. The act of creation is impossible in the first case since time cannot be at the same time an emergent phenomena and a substance which allows the creation itself. The act of creation is possible in the second case but that makes God subject to time.
As I understand it, God IS. God IS NOW. NOW by definition is not limited by time and space. Creation in contrast is a process taking place within NOW. The relative perception of linear time is an attribute of the process creation. However vertical time is an attribute of NOW making necessary the process of creation and manifestations of fractions of the whole. We normally assume that being moves through time but actually the perception of linear time moves through being, through NOW
Well, God then cannot create if He is not bounded by time.

thedoc
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by thedoc » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:14 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:01 pm
Why bother to discuss anything related to God at all then.
It's valid to discuss what you believe and what you know.

thedoc
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by thedoc » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:15 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:03 pm
Well, God then cannot create if He is not bounded by time.
Why do you believe that you can set limits to what God can and cannot do?

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bahman
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by bahman » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:25 pm

thedoc wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:15 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:03 pm
Well, God then cannot create if He is not bounded by time.
Why do you believe that you can set limits to what God can and cannot do?
Can I say that within human logic one can deduce that God must be subject to time in order to create? God might be timeless. But this means that within human logic God cannot exist since we are dealing with a contradiction we cannot resolve. This means that the human logic is broken and cannot lead us toward the truth.

Why should God create something, logic, which could mislead us? Is there any rational way toward God?

Nick_A
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by Nick_A » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:36 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:03 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:32 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:49 pm
There are two states of affairs when it comes to act creation. These two state of affair are: (1) God only and (2) God and creation. The second state of affair follows the first one so there must be a substance which separate these state of affairs so called time, otherwise the act of creation is ill-defined. Either time is a emergent phenomena related to act of creation or not. The act of creation is impossible in the first case since time cannot be at the same time an emergent phenomena and a substance which allows the creation itself. The act of creation is possible in the second case but that makes God subject to time.
As I understand it, God IS. God IS NOW. NOW by definition is not limited by time and space. Creation in contrast is a process taking place within NOW. The relative perception of linear time is an attribute of the process creation. However vertical time is an attribute of NOW making necessary the process of creation and manifestations of fractions of the whole. We normally assume that being moves through time but actually the perception of linear time moves through being, through NOW
Well, God then cannot create if He is not bounded by time.
Creation within NOW is bounded by time. God IS so cannot be bounded by our perception of linear time. If linear time is relative and perceived differently what is objective time for you?

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bahman
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by bahman » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:43 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:36 pm
Creation within NOW is bounded by time.
That is not correct. The act of God should be timeless if God is timeless.
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:36 pm
God IS so cannot be bounded by our perception of linear time.
That I understand. I am arguing against that.
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:36 pm
If linear time is relative and perceived differently what is objective time for you?
We cannot perceive time but we can deduce that it exists.

thedoc
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by thedoc » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:36 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:25 pm
Why should God create something, logic, which could mislead us? Is there any rational way toward God?
Logic was created by humans, why attribute logic to God when there is no evidence for doing so?

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bahman
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by bahman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:02 pm

thedoc wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:36 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:25 pm
Why should God create something, logic, which could mislead us? Is there any rational way toward God?
Logic was created by humans, why attribute logic to God when there is no evidence for doing so?
That is how we function. We are created rational being.

thedoc
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by thedoc » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:30 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:02 pm
thedoc wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:36 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:25 pm
Why should God create something, logic, which could mislead us? Is there any rational way toward God?
Logic was created by humans, why attribute logic to God when there is no evidence for doing so?
That is how we function. We are created rational being.
You think that being rational means stating something without evidence?

The other question is how do you believe you were created?

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bahman
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by bahman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:41 pm

thedoc wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:30 pm
You think that being rational means stating something without evidence?
No. In fact we need evidences to start a rational discussion.
thedoc wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:30 pm
The other question is how do you believe you were created?
I don't believe so. I was born. We are just in philosophy of religion forum discussing related things.

Dontaskme
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:55 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:36 pm
Creation within NOW is bounded by time.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:43 pm
That is not correct. The act of God should be timeless if God is timeless.
The act of creation implies a creator.

Creation is an imagined dream appearance within the already existing non-moving timeless ETERNAL NOW. The dream of separation, aka spacetime duality.

.

The non-moving timeless ETERNAL NOW is beyond spacetime duality that always is and always was uncreated.

.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed. And can never not be here.

.

Nick_A
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Re: The act of creation is logically impossible or God is subject to time

Post by Nick_A » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:22 pm

DaM
Creation is an imagined dream appearance within the already existing non-moving timeless ETERNAL NOW. The dream of separation, aka spacetime duality.
I don’t understand why you believe this. Could you explain why the Great Chain of Being is just a collective fragment of human imagination?

http://faculty.grandview.edu/ssnyder/12 ... 0chain.htm

Granted, everything is dependent upon the Source and in this way connected, but to imply they do not have a unique reality doesn’t make sense to me.

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