How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:42 pm

Because they see their own judgement as beneath their god's. Most religious people likely do have periods in their life where they find certain things about their god to be questionable, but it's pretty easily harmonized with 'skeptical theism', which is that they can't prove for sure that he's immoral.

If you're instead trying to make the case that god isn't real because our moral intuitions don't line up with his, I think that would be a more interesting argument.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:51 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:18 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:16 pm
Test that idea and tell us if God does the moral thing when he kills instead of curing us.
Gee...I would have thought it was a bacterium, a bullet, or an angry jihadi that was killing "us." :lol:
To be fair, there are quite a number of theists who thank god for good things when human activity was clearly the cause, but reversely don't blame him for the bad things. Like going into remission of a cancer, when that was obviously the work of the doctors giving you chemo.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:56 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:51 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:18 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:16 pm
Test that idea and tell us if God does the moral thing when he kills instead of curing us.
Gee...I would have thought it was a bacterium, a bullet, or an angry jihadi that was killing "us." :lol:
To be fair, there are quite a number of theists who thank god for good things when human activity was clearly the cause, but reversely don't blame him for the bad things. Like going into remission of a cancer, when that was obviously the work of the doctors giving you chemo.
Perhaps. And I have no problem with giving credit where credit is due...in fact, that seems to me the only way to proceed. But those Theists who believe in miracle healings are probably a lot fewer than the cynics who ask us to indict whatever powers that be for the bad things that are perceived to go on.

Neither is a sensible procedure, I would suggest. It takes a lot to identify any event as genuinely "miraculous" (that is, in more than a merely metaphorical and hyperbolical sense), so those who claim to be able to do so often seem to me to have insufficient evidence to warrant their conclusion. But on the opposite side, it is equally absurd to indict "the powers that be" for negative outcomes that are clearly performed by humans, bacteria, or other merely material agencies. Is it anyone's supposition that we have a contract with God that He is obligated to make our lives as smooth as butter for us, or have we any assurances that there are no other active wills in the universe, including human ones?

I would suggest those are just two kinds of outrageous claims. Both would require some showing, wouldn't you suppose?

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:50 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:56 pm
But on the opposite side, it is equally absurd to indict "the powers that be" for negative outcomes that are clearly performed by humans, bacteria, or other merely material agencies.
I actually agree with you that they shouldn't blame him for the bad things, either. What I was getting at, is to neither thank nor blame him when other things were clearly the cause, so it seems we're in agreement.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:59 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:50 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:56 pm
But on the opposite side, it is equally absurd to indict "the powers that be" for negative outcomes that are clearly performed by humans, bacteria, or other merely material agencies.
I actually agree with you that they shouldn't blame him for the bad things, either. What I was getting at, is to neither thank nor blame him when other things were clearly the cause, so it seems we're in agreement.
Well, I'd say "Don't attribute to God anything you don't have reason to think is his doing...on either side." If that's what we're saying, then yeah, we're agreeing.

Viveka
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Viveka » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:11 am

I often thank Jesus and the Buddha along with God whenever I find myself in good situations or had a good day. These people deserve praise for their Goodness. I'll bite my tongue about the immorality of YHVH because regardless he did good things in the Bible along with wars and so on.

thedoc
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by thedoc » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:56 pm

Perhaps. And I have no problem with giving credit where credit is due...in fact, that seems to me the only way to proceed. But those Theists who believe in miracle healings are probably a lot fewer than the cynics who ask us to indict whatever powers that be for the bad things that are perceived to go on.

Neither is a sensible procedure, I would suggest. It takes a lot to identify any event as genuinely "miraculous" (that is, in more than a merely metaphorical and hyperbolical sense), so those who claim to be able to do so often seem to me to have insufficient evidence to warrant their conclusion.
Tracie can't pin the caller down to identify just what is a miracle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSXhHDjrt6o

Tracie does bring up a valid point, why does God allow suffering in the first place rather than just preventing it.

It also brings up the question that everyone else seems to be dancing around but not addressing. "What is good for God, isn't dying and going to Heaven the greatest good of all?" So those people who died are receiving the greatest blessing God can give?

thedoc
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by thedoc » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:04 pm

“I believe that forgiving them is God’s function. Our job is simply to arrange the meeting.” - Schwartzkopf

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Immanuel Can
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:14 pm

thedoc wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:46 pm
Tracie does bring up a valid point, why does God allow suffering in the first place rather than just preventing it.
This Is a different question, if also an important one.

GIA supposes God's "ways" as he/she puts it, should be termed actively "immoral". But now you raise another question: if immoral things are going on, is God obligated to stop them from happening?

My response: "Why, and at what cost?"
It also brings up the question that everyone else seems to be dancing around but not addressing. "What is good for God, isn't dying and going to Heaven the greatest good of all?" So those people who died are receiving the greatest blessing God can give?
Well, let's put in another way, since the idea of a "Heaven" is so badly misunderstood today. Let's just ask, "Is there no reasonable way to see the temporary existence of some apparent evils of our lifespan as relativized or as needing to be contextualized in light of a longer lifespan, an eternal one?"

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Greatest I am
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:40 pm

thedoc wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:54 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:13 pm
Would you kill when you can take the moral high ground and cure?

Regards
DL
False dichotomy, most times there are more than just 2 choices.
True, but if you cannot answer that question, even after adding all the choices you want, you are not a moral man.

Regards
DL

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:40 pm

Crom (or GOD, if you prefer) allows suffering cuz...

He gave you everything you need to oppose and alleviate it yourself...if suffering bothers you, do sumthin' about it.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:57 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:42 pm
Because they see their own judgement as beneath their god's. Most religious people likely do have periods in their life where they find certain things about their god to be questionable, but it's pretty easily harmonized with 'skeptical theism', which is that they can't prove for sure that he's immoral.
Insightful.

If Christians cannot prove that to themselves, it proves that their religion has corrupted their moral sense.
If you're instead trying to make the case that god isn't real because our moral intuitions don't line up with his, I think that would be a more interesting argument.
I don't know about (more interesting) but, interesting indeed. You might want to start an O.P. on that issue.

Regards
DL

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:59 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:51 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:18 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:16 pm
Test that idea and tell us if God does the moral thing when he kills instead of curing us.
Gee...I would have thought it was a bacterium, a bullet, or an angry jihadi that was killing "us." :lol:
To be fair, there are quite a number of theists who thank god for good things when human activity was clearly the cause, but reversely don't blame him for the bad things. Like going into remission of a cancer, when that was obviously the work of the doctors giving you chemo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqeC3BPYTmE

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:03 pm

Viveka wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:11 am
I often thank Jesus and the Buddha along with God whenever I find myself in good situations or had a good day. These people deserve praise for their Goodness. I'll bite my tongue about the immorality of YHVH because regardless he did good things in the Bible along with wars and so on.
Hitler did good things as well, but they are overshadowed by the evil he did.

What good things do you see Yahweh as doing? I have nothing that comes to mind.

Regards
DL

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Re:

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:07 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:40 pm
Crom (or GOD, if you prefer) allows suffering cuz...

He gave you everything you need to oppose and alleviate it yourself...if suffering bothers you, do sumthin' about it.
Would that include Satan and her ability to deceive the whole world?

That would mean that what you think elevated suffering will actually add to it.

Regards
DL

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