The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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surreptitious57
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:53 pm

I am not responsible for genocides committed by dictators who were atheist simply because I am atheist and I condemn
the inhumanity of all dictators both atheist and theist equally so. To me the only real distinction is the scale of atrocity
And not the particular religious or non religious beliefs of those who were responsible for such crimes against humanity

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:28 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:58 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:09 pm

Well, first and foremost, because the statement "I have not seen evidence" does not equate to "there IS no evidence."
No, but, as with the law, you cannot proceed without it.
Of course.
And secondly, because the statement "I don't know God," does not equate to "Nobody else does either." So you have insufficient reason to produce a denial.
All I can say is that I have heard various arguments in favour of the existence of God and find none of them even slightly convincing. I'm not denying his existence, I'm merely saying that I'm not buying into it.
That's honest.
But secondly, because the evidence is there to be investigated by anyone with a sincere desire to know it. And depending on the level of inquiry one wishes to undertake, it ranges from the very accessible, popular level to the most scholarly. It's all there to be investigated, for the satisfaction of the intellect.
You seem to think a clever enough argument constitutes proof. Words written on paper proves nothing.

No, I don't think that.

But it's amazing how resistant one can become to evidence, if one has a stake in disbelief. So as I said, some willingness, on the part of the perceiver, to be convinced is a sine qua non. There's nothing one can do with someone who simply has decided he will not regard ANY evidence. But I'm sure that's not present company, so on we go.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:34 pm

davidm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:35 pm
Well, your “secular source” probably got it from Ian Stott, who claims that between 1917 and 2007, 52 atheists killed 148 million people!
Wrong! I don't even know the guy. In fact, I've already listed my source, and it's 100% secular, and 100% uninvested in the question in hand. It's just a straightforward list of what the various despots and regimes achieved, in the way of bodycount, produced by an entirely secular academic source. Go look.

Now, back to business: what was that number you were proposing? Given all your objections, how many people would YOU guess were killed by Atheists in the last century? Give me a number...just pick one...Just spitball it. Say, within ten million. You've got lots of room for error there.

davidm
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by davidm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:34 pm
davidm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:35 pm
Well, your “secular source” probably got it from Ian Stott, who claims that between 1917 and 2007, 52 atheists killed 148 million people!
Wrong! I don't even know the guy. In fact, I've already listed my source, and it's 100% secular, and 100% uninvested in the question in hand. It's just a straightforward list of what the various despots and regimes achieved, in the way of bodycount, produced by an entirely secular academic source. Go look.

Now, back to business: what was that number you were proposing? Given all your objections, how many people would YOU guess were killed by Atheists in the last century? Give me a number...just pick one...Just spitball it. Say, within ten million. You've got lots of room for error there.
Looks like you didn't read what I wrote. Oh, well. What else is new?

Who is this secular source? Have you named him somewhere that I missed?

Also, what is the evidence that atheists murdered 148 million people in the 20th century? But apart from that, please re-read (or read for the first time) my post before this one.

davidm
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by davidm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:50 pm

Since ICan ignored the substance of my previous post, let me state here the condensed version.

Even if it were true that 52 atheists killed 148 million people in the 20th century (it’s not true) and even if it were true that atheists are more likely to kill people than theists (not true either), it doesn’t matter. The truth claims of theism are independent of the behavior of either atheists or theists. Even if most atheists were bloodthirsty goons (they’re not) it does not follow that God exists.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:51 pm

davidm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:40 pm
Looks like you didn't read what I wrote. Oh, well. What else is new?
I read the excuses, if that's what you mean. They were just things you say before you say, "I can't give you a number."

But yes, yes, you can. That is, if you dare. Because I'm only asking for a guess. Just a wild, rough guess, within a few million. Go ahead.

Let me help you even get started. You gotta know "zero" isn't a credible number. So...what, six? Ten? A thousand? Two million? In all those wars, pogroms, re-education camps and killing fields, there must have been an Atheist or two...give me a guess at a reasonable number we can accuse of homicide. Any number. Come on. Stalin? Mao? Lenin? Hitler? Pol Pot? Chavez? Castro? Come on...there's got to be at least one or two...you can do it.
Who is this secular source? Have you named him somewhere that I missed?

Go look. Read the strand...go back a message or two..."The Encyclopaedia of Wars." You can go and count up the bodies yourself.

I guess you didn't read what I wrote...Oh well. What else is new? :D

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Harbal
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Harbal » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:54 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:28 pm
But it's amazing how resistant one can become to evidence,
Indeed it is, probably on a par with how another can disregard the lack of it.
if one has a stake in disbelief.
I'm not sure how that works. It doesn't seem very expedient if, deep down, you suspect that in the end you're going to have to face the music.
sine qua non.
Have some consideration, IC, not everyone is as fluent as you and I in Latvian.
There's nothing one can do with someone who simply has decided he will not regard ANY evidence.
Yet, knowing that, you persist in trying. No one could call you a quitter IC, what things you might achieve were you actually in possession of any evidence.

davidm
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by davidm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:01 pm

Let me quote my own post -- so tedious! :roll:

I am emphasizing the key points in bold. Please tend to those in your next post. Thanks

davidm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:31 pm
davidm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:00 pm
Let me guess! You gleaned you latest silly nonsense (and glaring non sequitur) from Ian Stott, right?
No, actually. From an entirely secular source. But let me put the question to you:

Just without knowing at all, how many people do YOU believe the Atheist ideologues of the last century might have killed?

Take a wild guess, for free. I won't insist you have to be right; I just want to see what you think.
Well, your “secular source” probably got it from Ian Stott, who claims that between 1917 and 2007, 52 atheists killed 148 million people! :lol:

Is this claim true? No, of course not; but suppose it were true. What would follow from that?

One thing we might ask is: Were these 52 atheists all really atheists?

Next, even if they were, did they kill 148 million people because they were atheists? Or for some other reason?

Then we would have to ask: Had they not been atheists, would they have refrained from killing these 148 million people?

We do know, of course, that throughout history, Christians and other theists have killed others in the name of religion; because the others were “infidels.” This continues today. Stott plays this down because the numbers killed by, say, the Spanish Inquisition were far smaller than those killed by the infamous alleged atheist 52. But of course the technological reach of events like the Inquisition and the Crusades was much smaller and more primitive than the mass-killing technology that existed in the 20th century and exists today. Graft today’s technology onto the Crusades and the Inquisition and the numbers slaughtered by theists in the name of theism would likely exceed 148 million.

Finally, though, all of this is irrelevant. The fact is, most atheists do not kill anyone. Thus the implied thesis that atheists are more likely to kill people is falsified.

But more: even if it were true that atheists were more likely to kill people, this fact (if it were true; it’s not) would have no bearing whatsoever on the truth claims of theism. Whether God exists or not is logically independent of the behavior of either theists or atheists.

Also, atheism is not an "ideology"; it's simply a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. You never seem to be able to get this somehow. Would you similarly say that the lack of belief in Santa -- "a-Santaism" -- is an "ideology"?

davidm
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by davidm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:03 pm

We might also ask, how many people has the capitalist, ostensibly Christian United States slaughtered since its inception -- very often in the name of Christ? Can the number even be tabulated?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:05 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:28 pm
But it's amazing how resistant one can become to evidence,
Indeed it is, probably on a par with how another can disregard the lack of it.
A funny thing about a "lack of evidence". It's very hard to prove. That's what's made Atheism so inherently irrational...it depends on a confident assertion that OTHER PEOPLE do not have the proof one admittedly lacks oneself. Not very rational, that.
if one has a stake in disbelief.
I'm not sure how that works. It doesn't seem very expedient if, deep down, you suspect that in the end you're going to have to face the music
.
Excellent point. If, as I say, we all eventually "face the music," then Atheism is really the kind of game children play when they're very young: they put their little hands over their eyes and say, "You can't see me," because they think that's the same as "I can't see you."

But that game won't play out well when the music stops, will it? For the moment, it may frustrate a few discussions with other mere humans; but I highly doubt that the Supreme Judge is likely to be at all fooled by classic Atheist game of "peek-a-boo."
sine qua non.
Have some consideration, IC, not everyone is as fluent as you and I in Latvian.
Sorry. It means, "that without which" the item in question cannot happen. It probably has a Latvian equivalent, but I don't know what that would be. :D

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:05 pm

davidm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:01 pm
Let me quote my own post -- so tedious! :roll:
Yes, it is...

Now, what was that number?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:08 pm

davidm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:03 pm
We might also ask, how many people has the capitalist, ostensibly Christian United States slaughtered since its inception -- very often in the name of Christ? Can the number even be tabulated?
Oh, I see...your plan is to wipe the blood off the Atheist hands by making anybody who was born in the US a "Christian," and then scrubbing off the blood in their deeds.

Doesn't work. Even if that were right (and it's clearly nowhere near right), it would not do one thing to absolve Atheism of its record.

And now...what number?

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Harbal
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Harbal » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:05 pm

A funny thing about a "lack of evidence". It's very hard to prove. That's what's made Atheism so inherently irrational...it depends on a confident assertion that OTHER PEOPLE do not have the proof one admittedly lacks oneself. Not very rational, that.
It's like the Terminator all over again, "It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are completely exasperated". Lucky for us you're not as scary as Arnie. :D

davidm
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by davidm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:20 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:08 pm
davidm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:03 pm
We might also ask, how many people has the capitalist, ostensibly Christian United States slaughtered since its inception -- very often in the name of Christ? Can the number even be tabulated?
Oh, I see...your plan is to wipe the blood off the Atheist hands by making anybody who was born in the US a "Christian," and then scrubbing off the blood in their deeds.

Doesn't work. Even if that were right (and it's clearly nowhere near right), it would not do one thing to absolve Atheism of its record.

And now...what number?
Here we see the obdurate dishonesty of the Christian apologetics hack in overdrive.

1. It does not matter how many people were killed in the 20th century by atheists, even if you can show that they really were atheists, and even if you can show that they killed because they were atheists. The point stands, which you dishonestly dodge: the truth or falsity of the claims of theism are logically independent of the behavior of either theists or atheists. Agree? Disagree?

2. And please ... the genocide of the Native Americans, the enslavement of blacks ... what was the dominant religious belief of that society? Hmm?

3. Still, you insist on numbers. Fine. Throughout history, how many people do you imagine have been slaughtered by Christians, in the name of Christianity?

Got a number?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The friendly atheist... not everyone is a barking dog

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:21 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:05 pm

A funny thing about a "lack of evidence". It's very hard to prove. That's what's made Atheism so inherently irrational...it depends on a confident assertion that OTHER PEOPLE do not have the proof one admittedly lacks oneself. Not very rational, that.
It's like the Terminator all over again, "It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are completely exasperated". Lucky for us you're not as scary as Arnie. :D
Same muscles, though. And an AK 47. :wink:

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