How to exit the religious mess!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Arising_uk
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:07 pm

Dontaskme wrote:You are the language. There is nothing outside of language.
Wrong, there is the body with it's senses and representations.
Beyond the you of language is the silent mute witness ever-present looking on in detachment. It's no coincidence that mans best friend cannot talk...you're other half of you... :roll:
So you can't tell what a whimper, growl, pant, howl mean?
I'll believe your belief in ''other'' when you can successfully step outside of your consciousness and step into the consciousness of someone else. ...until you can do that, I'll not believe a word of it.
A ridiculous position to take and shows that in reality you believe you are an individual body as if not, given all you have said about us being 'one' and there being 'no-one', you would believe you already are the consciousness of someone else. My take is simple, you cannot be the body of another so in a very real sense you will never understand what it is to be that consciousness however that is the point of language, to get very close to understanding the others point of view.

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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:00 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:07 pm
Dontaskme wrote:You are the language. There is nothing outside of language.
Wrong, there is the body with it's senses and representations.
Er, no, right, what you've just described or interpreted couldn't have been possible without language. Did you know you had a body with senses and representations when you were lying in your crib one day old...? and yet there you were lying in your crib all present and correct. That's the real reality. Language has created the entity ... that doesn't really exist in reality. No one is living life.

YOU are PRIOR to knowledge, knowledge is the illusory phantom. Reject this all you want, it's all your own made up fantasy.

.

thedoc
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:03 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:47 am


There is no one to deny reality. This presence is alone with itself. There is nothing inside or outside of it bar it self.
If I understand you correctly, then nothing exists outside the mind or self. If that is so and there is nothing outside the self, then how can there be anything new that the self didn't know before?

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:04 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:07 pm
A ridiculous position to take and shows that in reality you believe you are an individual body as if not, given all you have said about us being 'one' and there being 'no-one', you would believe you already are the consciousness of someone else. My take is simple, you cannot be the body of another so in a very real sense you will never understand what it is to be that consciousness however that is the point of language, to get very close to understanding the others point of view.
Again, you are twisting it round to fit your own model of what's being discussed.

There is no individual body with it's own consciousness.

I was using the other to highlight that there is only consciousness in which all bodies have their being, embodied consciousness. There is nothing outside of consciousness.

There is no one who is conscious. Consciousness is everything. You don't have consciousness, consciousness has you.

So therefore, language is the creation of ''other'' .... which is an illusion, because You already are one without a second.

There is no ''other''...you created other with language, with the mind.

.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thedoc
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:07 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:57 am
thedoc wrote:Some thoughts are images and those a person can definitely see. Other thoughts do not have an image and a person can't see them. You can't paint all thoughts with the same brush.
Can I take it you are talking about your 'God'? Maybe not, so I agree with what you say a thought could just be a feeling for example but I think one can always add the other representations to a thought, an image for example, and I think such a process can enlighten or enhance a thought.
I was not thinking of God with my example. If you think of a tree there is usually an image of a tree that comes with the thought. If you feel trust for another person there is usually no image that accompanies that thought.

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by thedoc » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:15 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:04 pm

There is no one who is conscious. Consciousness is everything. You don't have consciousness, consciousness has you.
You are an extreme subjectivist, I had a Philosophy professor in college who expressed that idea, there was also another student that I was explaining the difference between objectivism and subjectivism and when I finished explaining subjectivism she said "Do you mean people actually believe that".

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:33 pm

thedoc wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:15 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:04 pm

There is no one who is conscious. Consciousness is everything. You don't have consciousness, consciousness has you.
You are an extreme subjectivist, I had a Philosophy professor in college who expressed that idea, there was also another student that I was explaining the difference between objectivism and subjectivism and when I finished explaining subjectivism she said "Do you mean people actually believe that".
Exactly, Who would believe that?

.

That's what makes this all so beautiful and boundlessly free because i know there is no ''me'' to believe anything.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Arising_uk
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:33 pm

Dontaskme wrote:Er, no, right, what you've just described or interpreted couldn't have been possible without language. ...
Depends what you mean by possible? If you are talking about the 'I' of the internal voice then I agree with you but if you are talking about the 'I' of the the body and it's sensual representations then I disagree. No body nobody.
Did you know you had a body with senses and representations when you were lying in your crib one day old...? and yet there you were lying in your crib all present and correct. That's the real reality. Language has created the entity ... that doesn't really exist in reality. No one is living life.
Again this all depends upon what you mean by 'knowledge'? Did I cry when I was hungry, in pain, etc? Then I 'knew' I was hungry or in pain.
Did Helen Keller know she was an I? Do deaf people know themselves and others?
YOU are PRIOR to knowledge, knowledge is the illusory phantom. Reject this all you want, it's all your own made up fantasy.
Since you make 'knowledge' language I can agree with you as I am a body with memory and senses before I gain language but this appears to defeat what you say as how is there a YOU prior to such stuff in your metaphysic as you deny it being a body?

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:40 pm

Dontaskme wrote:I was using the other to highlight that there is only consciousness in which all bodies have their being, embodied consciousness. There is nothing outside of consciousness.

There is no one who is conscious. Consciousness is everything. You don't have consciousness, consciousness has you.

So therefore, language is the creation of ''other'' .... which is an illusion, because You already are one without a second.

There is no ''other''...you created other with language, with the mind.
Then I know what it is to be someones else's consciousness as we are all the same consciousness?

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:45 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:33 pm
Again this all depends upon what you mean by 'knowledge'? Did I cry when I was hungry, in pain, etc? Then I 'knew' I was hungry or in pain.
Did Helen Keller know she was a you? Do deaf people know themselves and others?
Like I keep repeating, everything is known One with the knowing, the only knowing there is.

It's not the label ''baby'' that knows, the label is an extra, it's a walk in...it's an illusory other. Language / concepts create the illusory idea of ''other'' where there isn't one.


YOU are PRIOR to knowledge, knowledge is the illusory phantom. Reject this all you want, it's all your own made up fantasy.
Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:33 pm
Since you make 'knowledge' language I can agree with you as I am a body with memory and senses before I gain language but this appears to defeat what you say as how is there a YOU prior to such stuff in your metaphysic as you deny it being a body?
Well the body is all inclusive of this one with the knowing, who is the other one who could deny that?

ONE is not even WITH knowing, it is the KNOWING.

With implies other, which is language.

.

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:59 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:40 pm
Dontaskme wrote:I was using the other to highlight that there is only consciousness in which all bodies have their being, embodied consciousness. There is nothing outside of consciousness.

There is no one who is conscious. Consciousness is everything. You don't have consciousness, consciousness has you.

So therefore, language is the creation of ''other'' .... which is an illusion, because You already are one without a second.

There is no ''other''...you created other with language, with the mind.
Then I know what it is to be someones else's consciousness as we are all the same consciousness?
Yes, as consciousness you have first hand experience of knowing how to be....so what you see in others is what you yourself as consciousness is projecting to be out-there in an other.....but it's just a projection, out-there- is really in your consciousness...not your consciousness but the consciousness that is being you... you can't know other peoples thoughts or feelings, but you know they have thoughts and feelings, because you have them, but because consciousness cannot get outside of itself, it can only experience the thoughts and feelings from the perspective of the particular body it has embodied, consciousness experiences itself from one perspective at a time, even while all perspective realities of every conceivable permutation is being played out simultaneously in the here and now because now is the only reality.

.

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:25 pm

Dontaskme wrote:It's not the label ''baby'' that knows, the label is an extra, it's a walk in...it's an illusory other. Language / concepts create the illusory idea of ''other'' where there isn't one. ...
Apart from all those bodies that is?

You appear to think you know what the noumena is, how?
Well the body is all inclusive of this one with the knowing, who is the other one who could deny that?
What body, you say there isn't one?
ONE is not even WITH knowing, it is the KNOWING.
No idea what all the CAPS mean?
With implies other, which is language.
Yes and since you cannot have a language without an other there is an other surely?

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Belinda » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:48 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Since thoughts are spontaneously self-arising, I don't know what you mean by being responsible for controlling them?
It may be your undoing that you believe that thoughts are spontaneously arising. Many if not most people can concentrate upon some thought content which they choose to concentrate on. Children at school are usually taught to focus their thoughts in order to solve problems. Were you not taught this at school?

Deliberately focusing your thought is a way to learn. You could not even learn to drive a car unless you could focus your thinking on what the instructor was telling you to do. I wouldn't like to see you trying to assemble a flat pack chest of drawers if you cannot control your thoughts.

Controlling one's thoughts is also a way to deal with anxiety and depression .

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:43 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:48 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Since thoughts are spontaneously self-arising, I don't know what you mean by being responsible for controlling them?
It may be your undoing that you believe that thoughts are spontaneously arising. Many if not most people can concentrate upon some thought content which they choose to concentrate on. Children at school are usually taught to focus their thoughts in order to solve problems. Were you not taught this at school?

Deliberately focusing your thought is a way to learn. You could not even learn to drive a car unless you could focus your thinking on what the instructor was telling you to do. I wouldn't like to see you trying to assemble a flat pack chest of drawers if you cannot control your thoughts.

Controlling one's thoughts is also a way to deal with anxiety and depression .
Why are you telling me all this stuff I already know, it's common knowledge isn't it, I know what it's like to be a human being.I am a human being you know...well in the dream of being a human being that is.

You draw upon a thought when you need knowledge on demand to do something you may have forgotten or not done before, those thoughts are stored in the 4th dimension where they reside permanently, else the thought wouldn't be able to arise in you in the first place, if they didn't permanently exist somewhere in the ether. Thoughts don't belong to anyone, they are not your thoughts, they belong to no one and everyone, and usually, you are operating most of the time on auto pilot and don't need to draw upon thought which is basically just knowledge on demand.

Yes, I was taught this at school. I was taught you have to learn to be a somebody, because no body wants to be a nobody, even though that's what we are in reality. And I tried to tell my teacher that I was rather attached to my nobody, and didn't really want to give it up.

Anxiety and depression are not to be suppressed, or controlled, they are very important tools natures uses as ways of informing in us that there is something wrong with the way we are currently living in the world, it's the sign you are waking up to all the bull shit that is human dictatorship, and it appears quite naturally in all of us when it is time to start deconstructing the false sense of self, when you are suddenly beginning to see through it all for the illusion it is. The more you ignore it by suppressing it, the more it intense it will start to feel...The real problem is when we believe we are this depression and we start to feel hopeless by trying to get rid and control it, people actually believe their anxiety and depression is really happening to them,and that it is real, it's not real at all, it doesn't even exist, they don't see that it's just a temporary visitor coming to remind them that they are out of sync with their natural unfettered relaxed blissful selves.

.

.

A lot of thoughts are spontaneously arising...when you wonder to yourself, where did that thought come from, but most thoughts are drawn upon.

And they are not your thoughts. You have never thought a thought in your life. You've never even see one, can you grab hold of a thought and put it in a jar on the mantelpiece? No one is thinking, there's just free thought creating the idea there is a thinker...look into this phenomena on the internet, there is plenty of information about it.

.


.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:46 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:25 pm
What body, you say there isn't one?
There's isn't a body except in this conception like I keep repeating to you.

It's All concepts...constructs of the mind, without the mind, what the heck am I.. what the heck is anything,

.

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