Panentheism

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
Posts: 461
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Re: Panentheism

Post by seeds » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:31 am

seeds wrote: The transformation of substances through bodily processes is simply the means through-which we continue to exist as physical beings on the surface of this planet – and should in no way be referred to as being our “purpose.”
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:11 pm
Consider organic life on earth as a whole with all it parts defined as living organism feeding on each other and reproducing. Why? The transformation of substances produces energy which we know is neither created or lost.
Actually, Nick, the sun produces the energy that you seem to be referencing.

And the act of living organisms feeding on each other is how they tap into that energy which then powers the processes that allow them to reproduce.

Please allow me to present a slightly paraphrased version of something I have written elsewhere regarding the concept of “solar-powered DNA”:
seeds wrote: Your physical body is merely the “vessel” in which the germ of your consciousness originated.

Your body represents the vestibule of your being that stands between the dimension of nonexistence and that of your entrance into the realm of true reality and eternal life.

In practical terms, the creation of your body is the result of our Panentheistic (Berkeleyanish) Creator setting up a complex “solar powered” system that converts the raw mental essence of his mind into elaborate and intricately designed patterns of energy without his central consciousness needing to be present to oversee the process.

We can view this creation process as being a deliberate programming of architectural design information known to us as DNA.

Think of each “living” cell as being like a tiny fragment of self-replicating “mental imaging energy” that is encoded with the information that not only causes it to replicate itself, but also with the entire architectural blueprint of the “hologram” it is designed to produce (a peacock for instance)...
Image
...And on the steadily rotating “canvas” of a planet such as the earth, a sun provides the energy that powers the programming in the DNA which, in turn, uses the cellular “machinery” to metaphorically “paint” God’s advanced mental holography into existence.

That’s what suns and “solar systems” are all about. They are the perfect and “believable settings” upon which God’s creation can manifest into existence in his “absence.”

God merely has to visit his islands of mental reality from time to time to make periodic adjustments in the DNA programming of the creations that he is interested in...

(us, for example, as is metaphorically represented in the Eden myth)

...while the rest can proliferate under the auspices of the random processes of evolution.
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Now to me, that makes a lot more sense than what you suggest in the following quote:
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:11 pm
As I understand it this energy transformation is serving a cosmic purpose which is beyond the scope of this thread
Nick, stop complicating the effort to reconcile spirituality with science by using esoteric (old paradigmy) allusions to some nondescript “cosmic purpose” based on how you (another “cave dweller” just like the rest of us) “understand it.”

(Continued in next post)
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seeds
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Panentheism

Post by seeds » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:32 am

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(Continued from prior post)
seeds wrote: If your particular form of spirituality does not allow you to impart a sense of “hope” to a dying child that their life will not end, but will continue on in a higher context, then at least in that regard, it is no better than atheism.
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:11 pm
Socrates said: “Give me beauty in the inward soul; may the outward and the inward man be at one.” ~ I distinguish between the inward and outward man. The inner man is what consciously evolves. it is what is real. The outward man is our personality. It is a created thing that reacts to the world so adapts rather than evolves. We create its reality and allow for its dominance. If a young child has a healthy seed of the soul, it will be saved. Healthy seeds return. How to explain this to a young child depends upon the child.
Nick, the truth of reality is far bigger than what Socrates or Plato were able to discern. In which case, we should be standing on the shoulders of those giants in an effort to see beyond them.

The point is, stop appealing to the authority of the authors of the old and crumbling paradigm, for it only tends to keep us anchored to a lower plateau of understanding.
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:11 pm
Meister Eckhart wrote:
...Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God seeds into God.
Look again at one of my illustrations from a prior post...

Image

...and then realize that whereas Meister Eckhart may have had something more “figurative” in mind, I, on the other hand, suggest that the seed metaphor is a literal representation of our relationship with the creative source of the universe.

(Continued in next post)
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seeds
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Panentheism

Post by seeds » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:33 am

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(Continued from prior post)
seeds wrote: Nick, because you are so immersed within the details of your own unique belief system, you may not be able to see that the arcane nature of what you stated above is completely saturated with “old paradigm” vagueness and mystery, and it will never translate into a “new spiritual paradigm” for us.

In other words, it can never coexist in harmony with science and modernity.
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:11 pm
Science and the essence of religion already coexist. All truths meet at the top. We have lost awareness of the top. The ancient ways including esoteric Christianity beginning with a conscious source reflect perennial truths meaning they always were. We don’t need a new paradigm, we just must remember what has been forgotten and then the coexistence of science and religion will be obvious.
I disagree.

The “West” needs a new spiritual paradigm in the same way that a new paradigm was needed to pull humanity out of the delusion that the human Pharaohs (and the sun) were literal gods...

...Or how a new paradigm was needed to pull humanity out of thinking that God hurled lightning bolts from the top of a mountain...

...Or more recently, we need a new paradigm to pull humanity (again, the “West”) out of thinking that God sits on a throne somewhere up in the clouds, along with his son Jesus sitting by his side.

To better understand what I am getting at, then check out the following illustrations:

Image

(For a clearer view of the dialogue, click on the following link and expand the image - http://www.theultimateseeds.com/Images/ ... %20189.jpg)

Image

(Again, for a clearer view of the dialogue, click on the following link and expand the image - http://www.theultimateseeds.com/Images/ ... %20190.jpg)
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Belinda
Posts: 1796
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Panentheism

Post by Belinda » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:34 am

Nick_A wrote:
Christianity became Christendom for society and served the interests of Rome. Christianity moved underground and remains there in the form of esoteric Christianity teaching what is necessary to make the goals of Christianity possible.
It's interesting that you prefer Valentinus to Irenaeus. I understand that the Church adopted Irenaeus in preference to Valentinus because Valentinus's 'heresy' was elitist.
A new field in Valentinian studies opened when the Nag Hammadi library was discovered in Egypt in 1945. Among the very mixed bag of works classified as gnostic was a series of writings which could be associated with Valentinus, particularly the Coptic text called the Gospel of Truth which bears the same title reported by Irenaeus as belonging to a text by Valentinus.[14] It is a declaration of the unknown name of Jesus's divine father, the possession of which enables the knower to penetrate the veil of ignorance that has separated all created beings from said father. It furthermore declares that Jesus has revealed that name through a variety of modes laden with a language of abstract elements.
(Wiki)

Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Panentheism

Post by Nick_A » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:25 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:34 am
Nick_A wrote:
Christianity became Christendom for society and served the interests of Rome. Christianity moved underground and remains there in the form of esoteric Christianity teaching what is necessary to make the goals of Christianity possible.
It's interesting that you prefer Valentinus to Irenaeus. I understand that the Church adopted Irenaeus in preference to Valentinus because Valentinus's 'heresy' was elitist.
A new field in Valentinian studies opened when the Nag Hammadi library was discovered in Egypt in 1945. Among the very mixed bag of works classified as gnostic was a series of writings which could be associated with Valentinus, particularly the Coptic text called the Gospel of Truth which bears the same title reported by Irenaeus as belonging to a text by Valentinus.[14] It is a declaration of the unknown name of Jesus's divine father, the possession of which enables the knower to penetrate the veil of ignorance that has separated all created beings from said father. It furthermore declares that Jesus has revealed that name through a variety of modes laden with a language of abstract elements.
(Wiki)
If interested, this is what I mean by esoteric Christianity. If you accept the premise it will be obvious why the original Christians valued what they did and why Simone Weil is considered the Patron Saint of Outsiders..

http://www.hermes-press.com/esoteric_christianity.htm

Belinda
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Re: Panentheism

Post by Belinda » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:17 pm

Nick, there are several identities of Jesus. The gnostic identity is I believe possible based upon Jesus' acquaintance with the Essenes, for which there is evidence in the Gospels. The Essenes shared cultural beliefs with Pythagoreans and the Druids of Gaul. So I have been told. This may all be historically accurate as far as I know. The thing is, what use is it? What use is gnosticism in this day and age?

Nick_A
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Re: Panentheism

Post by Nick_A » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:35 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:17 pm
Nick, there are several identities of Jesus. The gnostic identity is I believe possible based upon Jesus' acquaintance with the Essenes, for which there is evidence in the Gospels. The Essenes shared cultural beliefs with Pythagoreans and the Druids of Gaul. So I have been told. This may all be historically accurate as far as I know. The thing is, what use is it? What use is gnosticism in this day and age?
If you read the link it is obvious that esoteric Christianity is not for the multitudes who must rely upon exoteric Christianity. The value of the practice of esoteric Christianity is only for individuals sensitive to it. As a perennial tradition it always was and always will be.

Belinda
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Re: Panentheism

Post by Belinda » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:50 pm

Nick_A wrote:
If you read the link it is obvious that esoteric Christianity is not for the multitudes who must rely upon exoteric Christianity. The value of the practice of esoteric Christianity is only for individuals sensitive to it. As a perennial tradition it always was and always will be.
Okay. However, the multitudes are a lot more numerous than the esoteric elite. The other main identity of Jesus, that is to say apart from his identity as shamanic sage, is his identity as ethicist. As ethicist , Jesus endorsed the universalist ethic "Who is my neighbour? " It would seem then that the esoteric and the exoteric cannot coexist, unless the esoteric sage is able and willing to help the suffering multitudes. If it came to a choice I'd ditch Valentinus in favour of Irenaeus and I think that the old Church fathers were right to support Irenaeus. I have not much tolerance for elites whose only raison d'etre is belonging to a select club.

Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Panentheism

Post by Nick_A » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:24 am

Belinda wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:50 pm
Nick_A wrote:
If you read the link it is obvious that esoteric Christianity is not for the multitudes who must rely upon exoteric Christianity. The value of the practice of esoteric Christianity is only for individuals sensitive to it. As a perennial tradition it always was and always will be.
Okay. However, the multitudes are a lot more numerous than the esoteric elite. The other main identity of Jesus, that is to say apart from his identity as shamanic sage, is his identity as ethicist. As ethicist , Jesus endorsed the universalist ethic "Who is my neighbour? " It would seem then that the esoteric and the exoteric cannot coexist, unless the esoteric sage is able and willing to help the suffering multitudes. If it came to a choice I'd ditch Valentinus in favour of Irenaeus and I think that the old Church fathers were right to support Irenaeus. I have not much tolerance for elites whose only raison d'etre is belonging to a select club.
John 15: 18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
It's not esoteric Christianity that rejects the world but the world that rejects the Christ. The world resides in the darkness of Plato's cave. Preserving its imagination requires rejecting the purity of Christianity and replacing it with all sorts of Christendom.

It is fashionable for the secular mind to reject objective quality in favor of the equality from creating our own reality. Naturally this attitude will consider esoteric Christianity and the efforts to preserve its purity as "elitist." That is why it must stay hidden and continue as an oral teaching in order to preserve its purity.

Belinda
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Re: Panentheism

Post by Belinda » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:42 am

Nick:
Wisdom Tradition is a synonym for Perennialism, the idea that there is a perennial or mystic inner core to all religious or spiritual traditions, without the trappings, doctrinal literalism, sectarianism, and power structures that are associated with institutionalized religion. The Wisdom Tradition provides a conceptual framework for the development of the inner self, living a spiritual life, and the realization of enlightenment or of union with God.

Ken Wilber frequently uses the term in the plural in his own books, shadowing the theologian Huston Smith who popularized the usage. In this context it can be considered synonymous with esotericism, but does not have the faintly Western/Middle Eastern/theosophical nuances that are sometimes associated with the latter term.

In Christianity and in the Old Testament, the term is used to describe female images of the divine[1] in the Book of Wisdom. It is one of the seven Sapiential or wisdom books of the Septuagint Old Testament, which includes Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon (Song of Songs), and Sirach.
Wiki

If I am not allowed to quote that source. there is a lot else about the Wisdom Tradition. You should really try to read sources that have ed or ac attached to their addresses.

Nick_A
Posts: 2624
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Panentheism

Post by Nick_A » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:29 am

Belinda wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:42 am
Nick:
Wisdom Tradition is a synonym for Perennialism, the idea that there is a perennial or mystic inner core to all religious or spiritual traditions, without the trappings, doctrinal literalism, sectarianism, and power structures that are associated with institutionalized religion. The Wisdom Tradition provides a conceptual framework for the development of the inner self, living a spiritual life, and the realization of enlightenment or of union with God.

Ken Wilber frequently uses the term in the plural in his own books, shadowing the theologian Huston Smith who popularized the usage. In this context it can be considered synonymous with esotericism, but does not have the faintly Western/Middle Eastern/theosophical nuances that are sometimes associated with the latter term.

In Christianity and in the Old Testament, the term is used to describe female images of the divine[1] in the Book of Wisdom. It is one of the seven Sapiential or wisdom books of the Septuagint Old Testament, which includes Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon (Song of Songs), and Sirach.
Wiki

If I am not allowed to quote that source. there is a lot else about the Wisdom Tradition. You should really try to read sources that have ed or ac attached to their addresses.
Sophia translates to wisdom. What will ed and ac know about Sophia? The trick is to find people with understanding.

Belinda
Posts: 1796
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Panentheism

Post by Belinda » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:44 am

Nick wrote:
Sophia translates to wisdom. What will ed and ac know about Sophia? The trick is to find people with understanding.
ed and ac have identified those edifying parts of The Bible for you. The sources that you quote from have garnered their main ideas from ed and ac.

Ed and ac do the archaeology and historical research. Without ed and ac , understanding includes superstition and lacks knowledge .

If you deny ed and ac you are denying man's quest for meaning.

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