Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by seeds » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:23 am

seeds wrote: HI Dam,

DL asked all of us to tell him what we see when we look around and whether or not it is the “...best that can possibly be...” or whether it is something that is “...ugly and imperfect...”
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am
Thanks for your reply, and I do understand where you are coming from.

So my question to you is...would a child even contemplate an idea of hell if it had no known opposite thoughts to compare it with...
Probably not.

But I am guessing that the child in the photograph may have had one or two moments in his short existence where he wasn’t experiencing the intense agony of hunger, and not covered in hundreds of nasty flies.

So at least there would be that particular reference point of “opposite thoughts” to compare with.
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am
...who would put the ''hell'' seed of thought into the child?
I think that the implicit meaning of the word “hell” makes itself quite explicit to any person caught in the throes of some form of physical or mental agony, regardless of whether or not they have a specific name for it.

Wouldn’t you agree?
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am
And I'm also wondering if the same idea can apply to animals...some animals appear to live lives of intense dire circumstances, but from a human personified mind mentally do not appear to rank their predicaments as being either a state of heaven or hell.
I think you are right about that, Dam.

And I suggest that it has something to do with the assumption that the lower animals are not conscious enough to get mired down in a state of constant reflection of the events occurring in their lives.

I think they simply move from moment to moment in a state of mind that’s similar to us in our semi-conscious dream state where we confront the conditions of a particular dream – experience it – and then move on to the next one.

However, unlike humans who can awaken into a higher level of consciousness – above and outside of the dream, the animals simply continue to reside within that twilight level of consciousness where they possess no means of being able to truly evaluate their situation in a self-reflective manner.
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am
It does appear then that the human mind is what makes up the ideas of heaven and hell...where they don't actually exist in the real world.
Yes.

And of course there is no literal “Hell” (as in a place of eternal torment). However, don’t be so quick to dismiss the existence of heaven.

And I’m not talking about the nonsense handed down to us from the world’s religions. I am speaking of a transcendent level of reality that exists above and outside of the corporeal bounds of this universe – a literal “higher” level of consciousness.

That’s why heaven is always depicted as being “upwards.”

And what I mean is that just as the human level of consciousness is clearly “upwards” from the perspective of an ant's level of consciosness, or even that of a dog's level of consciousness, likewise, the level of consciousness of the inhabitants of heaven is “upwards” from the perspective of the human level of consciousness.

Humans need to realize that we do not represent the “top rung” on the ascending ladder of consciousness.

Image

(Continued in next post)
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seeds
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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by seeds » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:24 am

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(Continued from prior post)
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am
I understand that this is a tricky subject...I'm not trying to be insensitive toward humans here, I'm just trying to see it from the rawness of what is actually happening as it is...before human personified thoughts attempt to alter the what is....

Is the personified human mind really God's mind or what? ...or does God not have a mind?
You are speaking to a “Berkeleyanish Panentheist” here who believes that the entire universe is the literal mind of God, with our minds being the literal “embryos” of God’s mind.

We are individualizations of self-aware consciousness who are each capable of creating absolutely anything imaginable out of the living fabric of our own personal minds (just as God has done with his mind).

Image

...And as I have asked many times before, how much more “natural” can the truth of reality be than that which sees us awaiting our second and final birth into a higher context of existence in which the highest “species” of Being in all of reality is able to conceive its “offspring” (us) within itself, as is depicted in the image above?

I know I cherry-pick verses from the Bible to support my claim, but they sure sound right to me:
the Bible wrote: “...For in him we live, and move, and have our being...For we are also his offspring...”

”...Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again...”

“...it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is...”
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am
Before we can make judgements about what's fair in the world and what isn't, we need to understand what's really going on, by slowly and surely unravelling everything we have been conditioned to think and believe about life....remembering that none of us have ever been alive before, so what the heck do we really know about what's going on...I think it's going to be a long unravelling of all our human conditioning in the attempt to get right back to fundamental grassroots of why everything is the way it is..
Nicely stated, Dam, and I agree.

However, I fear that the unravelling may come in the form of a “reboot” where much destruction is going to take place.
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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:42 am

seeds wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:24 am
_______

(Continued from prior post)
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am
I understand that this is a tricky subject...I'm not trying to be insensitive toward humans here, I'm just trying to see it from the rawness of what is actually happening as it is...before human personified thoughts attempt to alter the what is....

Is the personified human mind really God's mind or what? ...or does God not have a mind?
You are speaking to a “Berkeleyanish Panentheist” here who believes that the entire universe is the literal mind of God, with our minds being the literal “embryos” of God’s mind.

We are individualizations of self-aware consciousness who are each capable of creating absolutely anything imaginable out of the living fabric of our own personal minds (just as God has done with his mind).

Image

...And as I have asked many times before, how much more “natural” can the truth of reality be than that which sees us awaiting our second and final birth into a higher context of existence in which the highest “species” of Being in all of reality is able to conceive its “offspring” (us) within itself, as is depicted in the image above?

I know I cherry-pick verses from the Bible to support my claim, but they sure sound right to me:
the Bible wrote: “...For in him we live, and move, and have our being...For we are also his offspring...”

”...Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again...”

“...it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is...”
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am
Before we can make judgements about what's fair in the world and what isn't, we need to understand what's really going on, by slowly and surely unravelling everything we have been conditioned to think and believe about life....remembering that none of us have ever been alive before, so what the heck do we really know about what's going on...I think it's going to be a long unravelling of all our human conditioning in the attempt to get right back to fundamental grassroots of why everything is the way it is..
Nicely stated, Dam, and I agree.

However, I fear that the unravelling may come in the form of a “reboot” where much destruction is going to take place.
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Dear Seeds, I have read all your responses you have addressed to me, and I thank you for your time in answering. I really do understand everything you are saying.

I love the way you think, and are more than happy with the way you've explained things so eloquently. I totally agree with everything you are saying. I too think exactly like you, and would like to congratulate you on the way you've managed to put your amazingly true insightful vision into pictures and words, and also, that you are able to answers other peoples queries and questions in a way that is satisfactory, and very pleasing to the listener reader.

I'm not quiet at the level of consciousness as what you are seeds, but I recognise everything you are saying...how does that make you feel when people say that about your work? ..

I am working on a book I've titled ''Notes to Myself'' at the moment, but have no desires to have it published for other people to read other than my immediate relatives....it's touching on all the same kind of stuff that you are into ... it's my way of teaching myself how to put this unusual uncommon subject into something that is easily readable, understandable with words that make sense...that make sense to me especially, so I figured then if it makes sense to me, it should then hopefully make sense to others...The last thing I want to do is write something that makes no sense to anyone, I'm a perfectionist in that respect...

I want to leave the book as a legacy to my children and grandchild...I want them to discover the book only after I've died, not before, it's existence is a secret at the moment, and will not be revealed until the day I'm lying on my deathbed taking my last breath.

Anyway..I'm getting there thanks to your beautifully presented reminders of who we really are. WELL DONE and thanks for coming back to this forum...I always look out for your posts, because I love reading them.

Also, I hope you don't mind if I periodically ask you some random questions now and again, in response to what you are writing when responding to other posters here?

.

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:35 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:19 am
seeds wrote: I am aware of where DL is coming from in his effort to have humans abandon any hope of there being an actual heaven above and beyond this world, but he needs to understand the full implications of his arguments and perhaps find a better way to present his case.
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:44 pm
I have a slightly longer version of what I put but few have what it takes to think in pure logic.
DL, I believe we’ve had this conversation before in that I have previously agreed with your efforts to expose the problems with Christianity.

However, there is absolutely nothing “purely logical” about your endless ranting and vitriol directed at other humans who have unwittingly been indoctrinated into belief systems from which they are unable to free themselves for various reasons.

Your lack of empathy in that regard speaks volumes about the benefits of your Gnosticism.

(Continued in next post)
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I would not say I lack empathy to those who you claim are unable to free themselves from their immoral religions.

No one in those immoral religions, except perhaps in some Muslim countries, has a gun to their head forcing them to stay in them should they choose to move to a moral ideology or religion.

Given that those immoral religions do a lot of harm to others, I let my empathy for them overrule my empathy for those contributing to that harm.

You might think I bully without a just cause but I think I have it and am trying to live by these.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

If Christians and Muslims did that last, I could retire from these boards.

Do you think my empathy, if I have it, should go to those who create victims or to the victims?

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:43 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:21 am
_______

(Continued from prior post)
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:44 pm
Do you deny that we live in the only possible world possible given all the past condition?
Yes, I absolutely and unequivocally deny that we live in the only possible world.
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:44 pm
Logically you cannot without destroying entropy and the anthropic principle.
How in the world does the possibility of there existing a transcendent level of reality – above and outside of this level of reality – destroy entropy and the anthropic principle?

(Continued in next post)
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I do not think you are quite understanding what I put.

The possibility of there existing a transcendent level of reality is there regardless of this being the best of all possible world or not, given our history. We are still live in the only possible world given our past history.

If that transcendent level is here, it is just another part of a history that cannot be altered. If it is not here, there is nothing stopping it from being in our future as far as I can know.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:58 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:22 am
_______

(Continued from prior post)
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:44 pm
It is irrefutable that we live in the best of all possible worlds,...
It is not “irrefutable” because I am refuting it (of course I can’t prove it, but I can certainly refute it).
To refute you must prove your case. What you are doing is denying it without refuting it.
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:44 pm
...given that it is the only possible world.
For you to presume and then declare with such brazen self-assuredness that this is the only “possible” world, is all anyone needs to know in terms of how serious you should be taken.
It is the only possible world given the history that created it.

How else could it be different given that history? How is some other world other than what is possible?

The only way possible that I see is changing the past and that does not and cannot happen as far as we know.
Again, I respect your efforts to expose the nonsense handed down to us from our ancient ancestors.
That phrasing is not that old my friend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PbPQ9VnxDM

Dig under the satire and you will see that the statement, this is the best world, because it is the only possible world, is a true statement.
However, you need to put yourself in the place of those whom you judge and realize that it could just as easily be an earlier version of you on the receiving end of your ridicule (i.e., a younger and spiritually naïve you, prior to your presumed enlightenment).
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All I can do is hope people recognize that truth and knowledge is the only thing I seek.

I give all the same opportunity to judge me.

Reciprocity is fair play so what is your problem with what I do?

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:10 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:23 am

Humans need to realize that we do not represent the “top rung” on the ascending ladder of consciousness.

[
This has not been proven has it?

There is no doubt that humans have a pyramidal type level of consciousness within our species with the lowest being a newborn and the highest being, perhaps, our philosophers, sages and gurus.

They all show their relevance and existence to us by doing their thing.

If that consciousness on the top rung wishes to be relevant to us, it would also have to do it' thing and make itself known. Right?

The ancients knew there was no such entity, I think, and that is why they would not assign attributes to God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:18 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:24 am

We are individualizations of self-aware consciousness who are each capable of creating absolutely anything imaginable out of the living fabric of our own personal minds (just as God has done with his mind).

However, I fear that the unravelling may come in the form of a “reboot” where much destruction is going to take place.
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If anything imaginable can be created, are you saying that a reality cannot be created that does not need a reboot?

If anything imaginable can be created, why do you deny that this is the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given our history.

I may be wrong, but you seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Necromancer » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:18 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:17 pm
Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Hell is obviously an invention of the church. Universalists Gnostic Christianity and other Universalist Abrahamic cults do not see God as a loser of the souls he calls the light of the world.

The light of the world does not end in hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As you can see, especially those last two quotes, all are saved without a sacrifice.

The logic behind Universalism begins with knowing that all souls are created equal. It thus follows that God would treat all souls the same way and would all be given the best possible end due to us being the light of the world and equal. This follows natural law as well as heavenly law as those are never in conflict.

Look at judging, from God’s point of view, with an example of one we mostly think of as evil, Hitler.

Hitler would appear before God and as God examines Hitler’s life, he would see that all those Hitler interacted with, and who contributed to what Hitler became, would all have to share the blame and guilt for Hitler becoming the monster we think he was.

If you take that sound judging logic to it’s ultimate end, you will see the logic of either punishing all of us for what we have contributed to evil, or forgive us all for all being exactly what God, if he existed, created us to be.

Non-Universalist creeds, that have that imaginary religious creation called hell, are trying to appease their own blame and guilt by placing some souls above others even though God would have created us all equal. God unites while religions separate.

Do you believe God to be a Universalist God, or a God that is such a poor creator that he would have to send his perfectly created souls to eternal punishment instead of just curing them, if required?

Regards
DL
Maybe not! Some people are just monstrous to this World.

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:25 pm

Necromancer wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:18 pm

Maybe not! Some people are just monstrous to this World.
Some are for sure, but were they born that way or influenced by others to be what they ended up being?

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by osgart » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:15 pm

this existence is indifferent to the hearts of just people. a transcendent reality would be impetus for trying to create utopia on earth and in heaven. a person is not defined by circumstances as to who they are, however circumstances can bring down good people.

I suppose evil people are a luck of the draw, yesterday nazis, today utilitarians, and naturalists, and religious people. it's a perform or die world, but desperation survival, and bad circumstances don't create evil in my opinion.

I do think we are here to provide an opportunity to live for others, but politics, and our government make life the jungle it is. I think compassion is the heart of life worth living. if we can create a compassionate reality, that will save us from a ton of ignorance and wrong doing.

ignorant people seem evil enough sometimes, but a ton of bad can be turned to good. yet an evil person is hateful without cause because of false pride. just punishment equal to the crime can repent an evil person. on earth we have to create justice ourselves if we desire it.

we really should treat people as we desire to be treated. There must be a truth out there, and perhaps that is why there is good in the world. the question is what are we willing to live and die for, and what not.

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:12 pm

osgart wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:15 pm
this existence is indifferent to the hearts of just people. a transcendent reality would be impetus for trying to create utopia on earth and in heaven. a person is not defined by circumstances as to who they are, however circumstances can bring down good people.

I suppose evil people are a luck of the draw, yesterday nazis, today utilitarians, and naturalists, and religious people. it's a perform or die world, but desperation survival, and bad circumstances don't create evil in my opinion.

I do think we are here to provide an opportunity to live for others, but politics, and our government make life the jungle it is. I think compassion is the heart of life worth living. if we can create a compassionate reality, that will save us from a ton of ignorance and wrong doing.

ignorant people seem evil enough sometimes, but a ton of bad can be turned to good. yet an evil person is hateful without cause because of false pride. just punishment equal to the crime can repent an evil person. on earth we have to create justice ourselves if we desire it.

we really should treat people as we desire to be treated. There must be a truth out there, and perhaps that is why there is good in the world. the question is what are we willing to live and die for, and what not.
No argument on most of this.

You are a bright guy so I can be brief.

" a person is not defined by circumstances as to who they are,"

Think Stockholm Syndrome or being born poor.

Regards
DL

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