!00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Rhodnar
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Rhodnar » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:37 pm
Once again, you simply begged your central question.

How do you know that "equality" is "just"? What frame of reference can you, in an Atheist universe, call upon to invoke such a judgment? If you are just making a personal-preference statement, why is anyone else bound to share it?
A better phrasing might have been, “How do you know that inequality is unjust?”, if not you'll need to rephrase this question.

Inequality is probably unavoidable in any system where all beings are not identical, truly just or otherwise. However; I'm referring to the internalization of equality here, not considering oneself to be superior or inferior to others. In a social system, some beings are required to make decisions for the society as a whole, and thus have a 'higher rank' in society etc:.
Justness and unjustness, rightness and wrongness, etc: are not supreme being dependant, they are moral judgments. Even if we are in a universe that was not created by a being or beings, we are still a social species and therefore need to coexist. In order to do this we have begun to move away from the world of kings, and towards the world of democracy. So no, equality, is just my personal preference, it's the bedrock of democracy. Gods or not.

The rest of your post suggests that if the atheistic view of the Universe is correct, that you consider yourself to be equal to a rock. The chief difference is that you have a brain, you can choose the conditions of your existence to some extent. If you believe otherwise, how'd you get that computer?

Death does seem to be unjust, after all most of us don't want to die, but is it? If the Universe was created by the truly just, or not created at all, the evolutionary process is a necessity, and death is an essential part of evolution in a finite ecosystem. I have also pointed out that in a truly just system, we would all become truly just and 'move on' to a different reality.
Belinda wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:01 am
Perfect justness allowed for creation to happen. Creation is a cavity or vacuum within perfect justness: a suggestion not a claim.
That is a little esoteric for me, I don't claim to know the natural state of 'creator beings' should they exist. However; if I am understanding you correctly, what you propose is possible. It is entirely possible that a truly just entity houses the Universe within it. If that is the case, then my analogy would be pregnancy. The truly just reproducing.
However; possibilities are not proof, and fortunately becoming truly just is its own reward, so 'belief' is not a 'necessary'.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Rhodnar » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:45 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:37 pm
If you are just making a personal-preference statement, why is anyone else bound to share it?
I'd like to readdress that, because I realize that it can be interpreted differently.

In my scenario, nobody is “bound” to do anything. However; if I am correct, another you will either accept it, or discover it for itself elsewhere, and choose to become truly just.

The other thing that I have eluded to, but not addressed directly here, is that becoming truly just makes you 'truly happy'.

All life seeks out conditions favourable to its existence, it's a evolutionary trait. Plants grow where the sun shines, and animals move into the shade on hot days, for example. In higher lifeforms the emotion of happiness has evolved, and our life's goal could be said to be to seek out happiness. After all, isn't that what most of us do most of the time? True, you may not like going to work, but it pays the bills, and allows you to buy the things that make you happy.

Becoming truly just brings 'true happiness', a state of mind like no other.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:57 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:42 pm

You're being disingenuous here. Arguments against theism and religion have always been mainly based on their irrationality, you're just trying to turn it round steal that piece of high ground.
There is no "high ground" according to Atheism, and no "low ground" either. So I can't "steal" anything; and if I did, then Atheism couldn't explain it as "wrong."
Atheism is amoral.
Yes, I agree again. It is the person that is or is not moral.
We agree on that, then.

However, according to Atheism, not even the person can be said to be "moral." Nothing can be, remember -- It's amoral. :shock:
You're turning the situation on its head again: It is belief that demands evidence.
It is BOTH, actually: that is, assuming the Atheist wants to positively say, "There is no God," or even "There are no reasons or evidence for God." (If he's not saying either, then he's only saying "I don't like the idea of God," which would not require evidence, since it's merely a personal taste judgment. Or if he's saying something like, "I have no familiarity with evidence for God, in which case it's a personal deficiency he's confessing -- and both stop short of trying to recommend any disbelief to anyone else: that would be non-evidence-requiring) However, if it's the first two options, then as a purportedly rational person he would be rationally obliged to show that his truth-claim in each case was actually true.

But how would he do that? :shock:

That's why Atheism is irrational. No rationale can be adduced for it. Thus "disbelief" becomes merely an arbitrary starting state, and the only way to sustain it is willfully to refuse further evidence.

In fact, that is the culpable "disbelief" that is spoken of in the Bible...that there are those who don't simply "don't know" God, but who also don't WANT to know, and won't consider any of the evidences of His existence, because they willfully determine to have no belief in God. The "disbelief" that God judges, then, is not merely a lack of familiarity with the facts, but a willful refusal on the part of some people to entertain any of the available facts.

Irrational it is...yet again. But now, obstinately so.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm

Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm
Inequality is probably unavoidable in any system where all beings are not identical, truly just or otherwise.
You've now deprived yourself of any rational basis to complain, then. You've accepted inequality as necessary.
However; I'm referring to the internalization of equality here, not considering oneself to be superior or inferior to others.
What property makes it bad to consider yourself "unequal" with others, inferior or superior to anyone?

We differ in every possible way: gender, age, skills, intellect, capabilities, culture, height, weight, history, strength, speed, opportunities, creativity, knowledge, experience...and on and on. But you say that it's "unjust" in some sense if we recognize any of these obvious and undeniable inequalities?

Why on earth would you suppose that? :shock:
The rest of your post suggests that if the atheistic view of the Universe is correct, that you consider yourself to be equal to a rock.
No. But it does mean you must see yourself as just as unimportant to the universe, just as much a pawn of its motions as anything else in the universe. If you're an Atheist, is means you ought to consider yourself as a phenomenon of an impersonal accident. End of story, really.
Death does seem to be unjust,
Oh, death is very equitable. The mortality rate around here is 100%.
...after all most of us don't want to die, but is it? If the Universe was created by the truly just, or not created at all, the evolutionary process is a necessity, and death is an essential part of evolution in a finite ecosystem. I have also pointed out that in a truly just system, we would all become truly just and 'move on' to a different reality.
Why does the universe owe us "a just system," let alone another "reality" we could "move on" to? :shock:

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Rhodnar » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:45 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:34 pm
....my knowledge only renders you a tw@t. But, sure, have another post of poor comprehension of reality..
You could have used the word "twat" there, (a) It wouldn't have bothered me, and (b) I doubt it would have been censored (as you can see).
Anyway...

This is incomprehensible to you chiefly because your head is addled by your own theories and you therefore refuse to take the time to 'actually think' about mine. Perfectly understandable really.

However; I did notice the following post:
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:29 am
Lets define God as:-
1. All knowing (apart from the future).
2. Having the ability to judge and reincarnate 'souls'.

God. An entity that formed as a result of causality...
Two alternatives.
1. God formed its own intellgence from the chaos of the early universe
2. God was created by intelligent species out of necessity in relation to entropy.
...

REALITY....breaks down to REAL IT Y.....why?

SINAI......breaks down to SIN AI.........the purported location of where God informed man of the conditions not to break...the sin.

ALPHABET...the alphabet used in English has perfect symmetry with the e=energy at the top...AI...UO.....the AI owes what? ENERGY.
Image
I took the time to think about that.

It seems rather exclusive to me, after all, all the peoples of the Earth don't use those words or letters.

Also, may I suggest a name for your god? (I'm surprised that you haven't come up with it yourself. Given that it took me longer to write the following, than it took me to think of it)

Uranus...

English pronunciation phonetically" You Reign Us"
American pronunciation "You Ran Us" or as per your methodology U RAN US.

Does that mean that Americans have moved beyond the need to be 'run', have forfeited the right to be 'run', or that god is dead?

Just wondering.

My suggestion would be that you actually think about my scenario. You never know.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Rhodnar » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm
Inequality is probably unavoidable in any system where all beings are not identical, truly just or otherwise.
You've now deprived yourself of any rational basis to complain, then. You've accepted inequality as necessary.
I have indeed, several times in fact, but I do see your point here. Bad phrasing on my part I'm afraid. If you and I were both truly just, but not identical, we would still have differences that could be equated to inequalities by beings who are not truly just. However; neither of us would view said differences as inferior or superior. We would merely regard them as differences.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm
However; I'm referring to the internalization of equality here, not considering oneself to be superior or inferior to others.
What property makes it bad to consider yourself "unequal" with others, inferior or superior to anyone?
True justness.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm
We differ in every possible way: gender, age, skills, intellect, capabilities, culture, height, weight, history, strength, speed, opportunities, creativity, knowledge, experience...and on and on. But you say that it's "unjust" in some sense if we recognize any of these obvious and undeniable inequalities?

Why on earth would you suppose that? :shock:
No I don't. I'm not you, and I am neither more or less important a being than you, irrespective of our differences. Where you're getting this from is beyond me.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm
The rest of your post suggests that if the atheistic view of the Universe is correct, that you consider yourself to be equal to a rock.
No. But it does mean you must see yourself as just as unimportant to the universe, just as much a pawn of its motions as anything else in the universe. If you're an Atheist, is means you ought to consider yourself as a phenomenon of an impersonal accident. End of story, really.
Not the end of the story, you have a brain, but a rock doesn't. You can choose the manner of your existence within the Universe to some extent, but rock can't.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm
Death does seem to be unjust,
Oh, death is very equitable. The mortality rate around here is 100%.
You were the one who proposed the unjustness of death, not I. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no requirement for an afterlife or a creation. I was replying that it isn't.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm
...after all most of us don't want to die, but is it? If the Universe was created by the truly just, or not created at all, the evolutionary process is a necessity, and death is an essential part of evolution in a finite ecosystem. I have also pointed out that in a truly just system, we would all become truly just and 'move on' to a different reality.
Why does the universe owe us "a just system," let alone another "reality" we could "move on" to? :shock:
It doesn't.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:57 pm
There is no "high ground" according to Atheism, and no "low ground" either.
I meant high ground in the sense of most easily defended argument. Lack of credibility has traditionally been the main argument against religion and it is an easy argument to defend so could be thought of as the metaphorical high ground (not moral high ground, btw.).
So I can't "steal" anything; and if I did, then Atheism couldn't explain it as "wrong."
Neither could vegetarianism. I could explain why I think it is wrong but my reasons would have nothing to do with atheism or God.
according to Atheism, not even the person can be said to be "moral." Nothing can be

According to atheism, there is no God, that is the only claim atheism makes.
he's only saying "I don't like the idea of God," which would not require evidence,
It's not a case of not liking the idea of God. I wasn't born believing in God and nothing has happened since then to make me start. If someone told me that a pixie crept into their bedroom and gave them a blow job I would require firm evidence before I accepted the truth of their claim because an event such as this is totally at odds with my own personal experience of life. The same applies to claims concerning God.
Thus "disbelief" becomes merely an arbitrary starting state
Only arbitrary in the same way that being able to feel the effect of gravity tends to make me sceptical about my ability to float about in the atmosphere.
that there are those who don't simply "don't know" God, but who also don't WANT to know, and won't consider any of the evidences of His existence,
It would be irrational to believe in every god of every religion but I suppose you would be satisfied if I restricted my belief to the same god that you believe in.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:11 pm

Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:14 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
You've accepted inequality as necessary.
I have indeed, several times in fact, but I do see your point here.
Fair enough. But I can't imagine why you would think equality could be necessary to "true justice."
Bad phrasing on my part I'm afraid. If you and I were both truly just, but not identical, we would still have differences that could be equated to inequalities by beings who are not truly just. However; neither of us would view said differences as inferior or superior. We would merely regard them as differences.
So the fact of our "differences" if we use that word, or "inequalities" if we use that one, no longer counts as a reason to worry about a lack of "true justice", if that's the case.
Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:14 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
What property makes it bad to consider yourself "unequal" with others, inferior or superior to anyone?
True justness.
But what's "just" about striving for an "equality" that reality shows us does not ever naturally exist? And how do we know that the moral or "just" goal would be "equality," especially since reality offers us no dimension in which we are "equal" inherently?
Rhodnar wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
We differ in every possible way: gender, age, skills, intellect, capabilities, culture, height, weight, history, strength, speed, opportunities, creativity, knowledge, experience...and on and on. But you say that it's "unjust" in some sense if we recognize any of these obvious and undeniable inequalities?

Why on earth would you suppose that? :shock:
No I don't. I'm not you, and I am neither more or less important a being than you, irrespective of our differences. Where you're getting this from is beyond me.
No, it's from you. You insist "equality" is a "just" goal. I'm asking you how you prove that. After all, reality does not grant us that.

Even in your denial above, you reaffirm the same claim. Right here, you say, "I am neither more or less important a being than you." How on earth do you know you're not either more or less "important" than me? :shock: What would ground such a claim? :shock: And to whom would you mean by the word "important"? :shock: The cosmos does not think you OR me important, so far as the Atheist telling of things goes...we're both matters of utter indifference. So how do you get this notion of "importance"?
Not the end of the story, you have a brain, but a rock doesn't. You can choose the manner of your existence within the Universe to some extent, but rock can't.
But so what? So what if some entities in the universe can feel nothing, and others can experience pain or "have a brain"? Both brains and rocks are contingent products of an indifferent universe, according to Atheism. And "choosing," well, what tells us that things that can wriggle are "better" than things that cannot? Both are indifferent products headed to nowhere, according to Atheism.

I think you're new to this debate, so to a certain extent you're feeling the need to go over territory covered many times long before you arrived. But there is no reason to think, on an Atheist account, anything in the universe is either value-better than a rock or deserving of a "just" outcome, whether "equality" or not. If you think there is such, you should provide it, I would say.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:24 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:30 pm

according to Atheism, not even the person can be said to be "moral." Nothing can be

According to atheism, there is no God, that is the only claim atheism makes.
Okay, then even that requires you to defend that claim: what test did you run? What evidence did you amass? How did you arrive at this firm conclusion?
he's only saying "I don't like the idea of God," which would not require evidence,
It's not a case of not liking the idea of God. I wasn't born believing in God and nothing has happened since then to make me start. If someone told me that a pixie crept into their bedroom and gave them a blow job I would require firm evidence before I accepted the truth of their claim because an event such as this is totally at odds with my own personal experience of life. The same applies to claims concerning God.[/quote]
Then all you're saying is "Harbal has no experience of God." Fair enough.

But why then imagine you have logical warrant to go beyond that? Why do what most Atheists seem to do, and denounce anybody if they DO have such experience? Why do they not just be modest, personal agnostics? That would be a fair way to interpret the very limited experience of one little life and one particular situation. But to go beyond and declare "Religious people are loonies" or something like that, is to put themselves in a position to have to prove that case...Atheists make that step, but then they want to cry foul if they're asked for the evidence necessary to justify such a claim.
that there are those who don't simply "don't know" God, but who also don't WANT to know, and won't consider any of the evidences of His existence,
It would be irrational to believe in every god of every religion but I suppose you would be satisfied if I restricted my belief to the same god that you believe in.
My satisfaction is of very small consequence -- or none.

There is a God. He will judge the earth, and put an end to all the "injustice" of which Rhodnar is speaking. He has made a way for us to know Him, and to be delivered from this justice. Justice has already been achieved on your behalf. But some will take that way, and some will spit at God instead. So it's the satisfaction of that ultimate true justice, given the presence of temporary injustice, and the ultimate satisfaction of your own situation with God that are matters of real importance. Nothing else.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:54 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:24 pm
Okay, then even that requires you to defend that claim: what test did you run? What evidence did you amass? How did you arrive at this firm conclusion?
Why do I have to defend it, can't I just decline that particular belief without being vilified? You've got it the wrong way round: nothing has caused me to conclude that there is a god, therefore, I haven't concluded it.
But why then imagine you have logical warrant to go beyond that?
I don't want to go beyond that.
Why do what most Atheists seem to do, and denounce anybody if they DO have such experience?
I don't.
But to go beyond and declare "Religious people are loonies" or something like that, is to put themselves in a position to have to prove that case...Atheists make that step,
Some religious people are loonies but so are some atheists, but neither are, by definition, loonies.

I have engaged with you on more than one occasion and asked why we can't just respect each other's point of view and leave it at that. I think I am more relaxed about your belief than you are about my lack of it and I wouldn't have the slightest desire to argue about it if it weren't for the fact that you persistently try to put "non believers" down.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:14 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:54 pm

Why do I have to defend it, can't I just decline that particular belief without being vilified? You've got it the wrong way round: nothing has caused me to conclude that there is a god, therefore, I haven't concluded it.
So you're going with the 'soft' version, personal agnosticism? Then you don't have to defend it. It might well be quite true that you have no evidence: who are we to say?

But if you want more, then you will have to defend it. If you want to say that other people ought to do as you do, or that other people are wrong to believe in God, you'll owe a defence of that with evidence and logic.

So which is it you wish to say?
I don't want to go beyond that.
Good. But then, you're not in a position to interrogate or ridicule anyone who does differently, are you? You're simply saying that you don't know anything about God.
Some religious people are loonies but so are some atheists, but neither are, by definition, loonies.
Then we agree entirely.
I have engaged with you on more than one occasion and asked why we can't just respect each other's point of view and leave it at that.

We can respect each other, and should. But that's not to say we cannot disagree about points-of-view. It's a philosophy site, so what else are we going to be here to talk about? However, we can disagree charitably, sure.
I think I am more relaxed about your belief than you are about my lack of it and I wouldn't have the slightest desire to argue about it if it weren't for the fact that you persistently try to put "non believers" down.
I'm not out to "put" anyone "down." That would be petty and pointless, I think we'd both agree.

But let me frame it to you this way: if you genuinely believed I was making a mistake, or making a wretched life-choice and endangering my eternal soul, I'd like to think you'd venture to say something to me about it. And in fact, I would surmise that the more you believed it, the more firmly you'd speak about it, and the longer you'd spend talking to me about it. You might even debate with me, if you really cared what happened to me, and wouldn't mind much if I became difficult and hostile. You'd kind of want to do the right thing for me anyway, wouldn't you?

Now, if you didn't care, or if you didn't really believe any such thing at all, I'd understand if you did differently. That would make sense. But I think you probably would say something.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:14 pm

But if you want more, then you will have to defend it.
Fortunately for me I don't want more and am therefore spared from making the effort.
If you want to say that other people ought to do as you do, or that other people are wrong to believe in God, you'll owe a defence of that with evidence and logic.
I want to say neither of those things and so consider myself debt free.

But let me frame it to you this way: if you genuinely believed I was making a mistake, or making a wretched life-choice and endangering my eternal soul, I'd like to think you'd venture to say something to me about it. And in fact, I would surmise that the more you believed it, the more firmly you'd speak about it, and the longer you'd spend talking to me about it. You might even debate with me, if you really cared what happened to me, and wouldn't mind much if I became difficult and hostile. You'd kind of want to do the right thing for me anyway, wouldn't you?
Okay, I appreciate your efforts to save my soul but could I just request that you do it with a little less patronisation?

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:43 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:31 pm

Okay, I appreciate your efforts to save my soul but could I just request that you do it with a little less patronisation?
Hmm. I'm not sure how you're perceiving that, because it hasn't been my thought. But I'm sorry if that's been your experience of our conversation.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:43 pm
But I'm sorry if that's been your experience of our conversation.
Assuming you mean that sincerely, I am sorry for employing excessive abuse during the course of some of our past exchanges. :oops:

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:04 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:52 pm

Assuming you mean that sincerely, I am sorry for employing excessive abuse during the course of some of our past exchanges. :oops:
I do. And perhaps I gave you cause...though unintentionally, I assure you. So no hard feelings.

That's big of you to say.

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