100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:57 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:26 pm
Reflex wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:37 pm
You may not want to admit it, but even you pass judgment on the relative value of ideas.
Well, sure! But your question was "Do all ideas have the same cosmic value?" In the bigger scheme of things (which is what I thought you were referring to by using the word "cosmic") I'm not sure one idea matters over another. They're all just available options.
I don't understand why you're legitimizing every idea that's out there. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. Every impulse of every electron or thought is an acting unit in the whole universe: a leaf cannot turn or a thought stir without affecting the most distant star.

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Lacewing
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Lacewing » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:42 am

Reflex wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:57 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:26 pm
Reflex wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:37 pm
You may not want to admit it, but even you pass judgment on the relative value of ideas.
Well, sure! But your question was "Do all ideas have the same cosmic value?" In the bigger scheme of things (which is what I thought you were referring to by using the word "cosmic") I'm not sure one idea matters over another. They're all just available options.
I don't understand why you're legitimizing every idea that's out there. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. Every impulse of every electron or thought is an acting unit in the whole universe: a leaf cannot turn or a thought stir without affecting the most distant star.
I'm not legitimizing every idea that's out there... I just think that what we humans experience and see and think is not some kind of grand defining or complete element in the bigger picture. All of our judgments about life and death and good and bad are simply OUR judgments that apply to our "world" in the moment. In the bigger "cosmic" picture, planets and stars are born and die... things come and go... and there are no judgments about any of that. What are ideas and judgments... but temporary little mind dances for humans? We dance while we can, doing it however we want, for all kinds of reasons. It's an evolving cosmic picture.

I do think that the quality of our being/energy resonates throughout the universe (like ripples in water)... but not in the terms that we typically think in. Rather, more organically... like an organism sluffing off dead cells in favor of more healthy ones. But there's no judgment going on.

Have you ever had the experience of knowing what to do without a bunch of thought and judgment? You just do it... like a stream flowing into the ocean... and it's perfect.

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Greta
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Greta » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:18 am

Greta wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:33 am
Reflex wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:27 am
The problem is when atheists retreat into agnosticism, i.e., when they say they don't believe in God but refuse to say he cannot exist.
What's wrong with that?
Nothing -- if you don't mind ignoring the logic of what was said.[/quote]

Where's the logic there? For instance, I might refuse to say that John Hagelin's version of string theory doesn't exist, but that does not mean I should logically then believe in it. Quite the contrary.

If one is unsure, then one does not believe. Easy.

Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:41 am

Greta wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:18 am
Greta wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:33 am
Reflex wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:27 am
The problem is when atheists retreat into agnosticism, i.e., when they say they don't believe in God but refuse to say he cannot exist.
What's wrong with that?
Nothing -- if you don't mind ignoring the logic of what was said.
Where's the logic there? For instance, I might refuse to say that John Hagelin's version of string theory doesn't exist, but that does not mean I should logically then believe in it. Quite the contrary.

If one is unsure, then one does not believe. Easy.
[/quote]
Go back and follow the argument.

Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:44 am

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:42 am
Reflex wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:57 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:26 pm

Well, sure! But your question was "Do all ideas have the same cosmic value?" In the bigger scheme of things (which is what I thought you were referring to by using the word "cosmic") I'm not sure one idea matters over another. They're all just available options.
I don't understand why you're legitimizing every idea that's out there. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. Every impulse of every electron or thought is an acting unit in the whole universe: a leaf cannot turn or a thought stir without affecting the most distant star.
I'm not legitimizing every idea that's out there...
Yes, you are

Londoner
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Londoner » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:59 am

Reflex wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:59 pm
Sorry, but I'm not going to let semantical games sidetrack me. I think I spoke quite succinctly
In other words, you are unwilling explain what the words you use mean. It is your argument that is built on playing games with language. For example, you do realise that:
God=Being=Necessary Being, but God=Nature=contingent being. The former cannot cease to be; everything in the the latter can.
is either meaningless or trivial?

You can generate any number of these mysterious utterances: God is the colour in red or 'God is the final number of an infinite sequence' etc. Because we are unable to extract any meaning from them we are invited to think this must be because the meaning must be profound.
Do all ideas have the same cosmic value?
What does cosmic mean in that question? Nothing. But by using that word to qualify to 'value' it means we can now no longer understand what is meant by 'value' and thus answer the question. Again, our difficulty in responding is meant to suggest to us that we have been asked a question that is too deep for us.

Belinda
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Belinda » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:29 am

Reflex wrote:
God=Being=Necessary Being, but God=Nature=contingent being. The former cannot cease to be; everything in the the latter can.
Why do you think that the events of nature are contingent? The belief that all the events of nature are contingent events is not an axiomatic belief.

Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:56 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:29 am
Reflex wrote:
God=Being=Necessary Being, but God=Nature=contingent being. The former cannot cease to be; everything in the the latter can.
Why do you think that the events of nature are contingent? The belief that all the events of nature are contingent events is not an axiomatic belief.
Yes, it is. Name one thing that is not contingent on something prior or more fundamental than itself.

Belinda
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Belinda » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:43 pm

Reflex wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:56 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:29 am
Reflex wrote:
God=Being=Necessary Being, but God=Nature=contingent being. The former cannot cease to be; everything in the the latter can.
Why do you think that the events of nature are contingent? The belief that all the events of nature are contingent events is not an axiomatic belief.
Yes, it is. Name one thing that is not contingent on something prior or more fundamental than itself.
The causes that we tend to assign to events are socially mediated causes. Causal chains in time , circumstantial causes, and lawlike causes combine so that causal determinism ultimately implies cause of itself. Nature does not cease to be . There will at some time perhaps be no body-minds to detect nature however that does not mean that nature disappears.

I am not clear about what you mean when you say "more fundamental". I can agree that all events are contingent upon God or upon nature. I simply cannot see that adding the supernatural level to the ontology adds any value,

Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:25 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:43 pm
Reflex wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:56 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:29 am
Reflex wrote:



Why do you think that the events of nature are contingent? The belief that all the events of nature are contingent events is not an axiomatic belief.
Yes, it is. Name one thing that is not contingent on something prior or more fundamental than itself.
The causes that we tend to assign to events are socially mediated causes. Causal chains in time , circumstantial causes, and lawlike causes combine so that causal determinism ultimately implies cause of itself. Nature does not cease to be . There will at some time perhaps be no body-minds to detect nature however that does not mean that nature disappears.

I am not clear about what you mean when you say "more fundamental". I can agree that all events are contingent upon God or upon nature. I simply cannot see that adding the supernatural level to the ontology adds any value,
Nothing "supernatural" about it. In fact, just the opposite. What can be more natural or more real than that what cannot not be?

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Lacewing
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Lacewing » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:25 pm

Reflex wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:44 am
Lacewing wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:42 am
I'm not legitimizing every idea that's out there...
Yes, you are
You don't speak for me, Reflux. I've spent enough energy interacting with you, so kindly be grateful and fuck off.

Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:35 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:25 pm
Reflex wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:44 am
Lacewing wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:42 am
I'm not legitimizing every idea that's out there...
Yes, you are
You don't speak for me, Reflux. I've spent enough energy interacting with you, so kindly be grateful and fuck off.
:lol: Who said, "I'm not sure one idea matters over another. They're all just available options"?

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:03 am

Rhodnar wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:29 pm
Although this is an 'absolute' proof, it's not a proof that all will be willing to accept.

To be a 'God' a being must be worthy of the title.

To be worthy of the title 'God', a being must be 'truly just'.
The 'truly just' consider all beings to be equal.
Therefore; the 'truly just' have no desire to be looked upon as 'Gods'.

The 'truly just' require no other being to obey or follow them.
The 'truly just' do not manipulate other beings, with punishment and reward.
The 'truly just' do not meddle in the lives of others, for to do so would be unjust.
As an atheist, I've personally never found the 'problem of evil', which more or less seems to be what you're getting at, to be convincing at all. You need to show how it's necessarily the case that the 'truly just' would not do those things. "I can't conceive of a reason why he would do these things, therefore there isn't one' is not logically sound.

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Lacewing
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Lacewing » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:16 am

Reflex wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:35 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:25 pm
Reflex wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:44 am
Yes, you are
You don't speak for me, Reflux. I've spent enough energy interacting with you, so kindly be grateful and fuck off.
:lol: Who said, "I'm not sure one idea matters over another. They're all just available options"?
My statement above was about the big picture... on the cosmic/universal level... where human judgments and ideas are meaningless. Meanwhile, here on our little worldly stage, ideas DO of course matter... one over another... as they affect our limited reality in the here and now. Are you so unable to grasp concepts that have variables, and must you create your world from single sentences without context? Is that how you can make yourself right in the shallow wormworld you live in?

Unlike you (apparently), I don't think there's ONE answer that must apply to every perspective and situation. It was your stupid statement about COSMIC VALUE in the first place that started this whole exchange. And although you've not expanded further on what the fuck you meant, you want to argue with my response to it. So it looks like you think this limited human world is all there is, and that all of the rules and ideas here must surely extend to the entire universe on every level. How freaking arrogant and stupid.

Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:08 am

Lacewing wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:16 am
Reflex wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:35 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:25 pm

You don't speak for me, Reflux. I've spent enough energy interacting with you, so kindly be grateful and fuck off.
:lol: Who said, "I'm not sure one idea matters over another. They're all just available options"?
My statement above was about the big picture... on the cosmic/universal level... where human judgments and ideas are meaningless. Meanwhile, here on our little worldly stage, ideas DO of course matter... one over another... as they affect our limited reality in the here and now. Are you so unable to grasp concepts that have variables, and must you create your world from single sentences without context? Is that how you can make yourself right in the shallow wormworld you live in?

Unlike you (apparently), I don't think there's ONE answer that must apply to every perspective and situation. It was your stupid statement about COSMIC VALUE in the first place that started this whole exchange. And although you've not expanded further on what the fuck you meant, you want to argue with my response to it. So it looks like you think this limited human world is all there is, and that all of the rules and ideas here must surely extend to the entire universe on every level. How freaking arrogant and stupid.
But human judgment and ideas are not meaningless on the cosmic level. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. It is literally true: “No man lives by himself.” Cosmic socialization constitutes the highest form of personality unification. Every impulse of every electron is an acting unit in the whole universe: we are co-creators.

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