Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Belinda
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by Belinda » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:59 am

Wendy Darling wrote:
Everybody prays informally, everywhere, on/off, all the damn time. Any energy one directs is an informal prayer for good, bad, whatever. So there are no true atheists cause everybody directs there energy towards goals, wishes, hopes, curses, blah, blah...Everybody prays informally.
I agree about "no true atheists" with regard to your description of praying. 'Atheist' is nowadays an imprecise word.

The reason for communal as opposed to private rituals is that communal rituals increase solidarity of purpose. This effect can be seen in school morning assemblies or popular dancing, or pop concerts. even when God is not mentioned. The solidarity effect of common purpose is increased by poetry, hymn singing, dancing and so on.

WendyDarling
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by WendyDarling » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:19 am

How can folks who don't actually believe have solidarity in anything other than their unspoken disbelief. Even Jesus' apostles didn't believe and they all had bird's eye views of Jesus in action performing miracles. I get the principle of gathering, but without belief it seems more of a social event culminating in church profits. There have been prayer circle studies conducted to gauge the effectiveness of group prayer in healing very sick individuals. This study was long ago, but the findings were encouraging in that a few terminal patients gained some "unexplained/unexpected" longevity from the prayer circles and there may have been one cure.

surreptitious57
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:48 am

The non acceptance of a truth claim with regard to a specific class of deity has got absolutely nothing to with directing any energy towards goals
As physical or mental efforts at securing particular outcomes can be achieved without praying of any kind. Stretching the definition of praying to include such efforts invalidates the meaning of the word entirely. And one also has to be aware of how the word energy is used because it comes with metaphysical or supernatural baggage attached to it such as with reference to energy that is spiritual. I reject all non physical explanations
for any thing because there is not one shred of evidence for them. And I equally reject all attempts at redefining evidence outside of its brutally rigorous scientific meaning. Believing something is true does not actually make it so. I also have no interest in redefining reality in order to fit in with my philosophy or world view. As my philosophy or world view by complete contrast is actually based on reality and not the other way round

ForCruxSake
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by ForCruxSake » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:09 pm

WendyDarling wrote:FCS,

Haha, your an atheist with a yen for joie de vivre! Nothing wrong with that. True, you could be talking to yourself in a healthy way, but do that again and get back to me with the Who is going to handle those hopes/wishes. You don't need to talk to yourself to know what they are, so you are voicing it aloud to garner the attention of cosmic forces or God, whatever. Keep disagreeing with me while God listens to you.

Praise doesn't necessarily mean belief. Congregations do all kinds of activities in church-like settings that are more for the people than for their God.

Just admit, you never believed that's why it's no longer apart of your life. Once you believe, once you and God have tested one another, there's no take backs, you never stop believing for that is impossible. You may grow weary in your relationship with God, but disbelief becomes simply a word that cannot be applied to you.
You don't know me, so professing to understand me, and to know my actions and history better than I do, without even questioning me, makes me understand you to be a bullying, sanctimonious 'know-nothing', who makes me want to turn away from whatever it is you are spiritually quaffing, rather than express a healthy interest.

I can tell you, I did truly believe... but clearly that's wasted on you. You'll believe whatever nonsense it is you want to believe, despite what people share with you, as shown by the fact that, having known me for five minutes, you claim to know me better than I know myself.

I really don't think you deserve an explanation because it's wasted on you, but knowing this to be a public post and in case others may wonder, I lost my faith because I grew up, and I grew a brain, and I saw (in my teens) that I was responsible for what happened to me, not Him. Then, somewhere in adulthood, I realised He wasn't actually here. We were making him up for various reasons. It didn't make me want Him NOT to be here. If He were real, He'd be fantastic. So would Dr. Doolittle. Could you imagine that? A man who could speak to animals?!

Loss of faith was all rather disappointing, for a while, never confusing, until I got on with life and just forgot about it. I grew in confidence and the ability to think and I'm happy. I care about others. I do good. I love religion and what it offers to many people. I hate what it does to others, like you: turning them into 'in yer face bullies', who shake a spiritual fist in your face, as they talk of saving you.

I don't think I'm atheist, either. I'm ready to receive God if/when He actually lives up to any promise other people seem to have made on His behalf, or *IF* He actually bothers to show up. If anything, I'm either 'a doubter' or an 'I don't really give a monkey's arse'-er.

I have no evidence of God in my life, I never did, I just accepted what I was told for love of my parents. I stopped when I developed love for myself and those around me. I remember being persuaded about the veracity and love of God, by my parents. I was totally hooked but then I was convinced teacups and teapots could talk, too, having watched and loved, 'Beauty and the Beast' as much as I loved God.

My respect, and sometimes love, for religion comes from a place of respect and love for people, for in their joy, we see glimpses of the true magnificence Life has to offer.

You can pity me, but continue to tell me who I am, and I'll have to continue to put your stubborn, bullying arse back in its potty. God may well be listening to me *IF, AND ONLY IF*, there *IS* a God, but given that you are a believer, He's clearly and very definitely listening to your graceless banter, too. He's probably shaking His head and wondering how many lines he's going to have to give you, before you learn to be a good little Christian, that respects others and doesn't bully, in order to pass your exams, to earn a place in Heaven.

Not that I'm an expert, like you... but I do recognise grace, beauty in thought and behaviour, and I think that, *IF* there's a Heaven, there's a very slim chance... communion wafer thin... that you'll make it there. And I've only known you five minutes. :lol:

WendyDarling
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by WendyDarling » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:18 am

FCS wrote
You don't know me, so professing to understand me, and to know my actions and history better than I do, without even questioning me, makes me understand you to be a bullying, sanctimonious 'know-nothing', who makes me want to turn away from whatever it is you are spiritually quaffing, rather than express a healthy interest.
I was actually being a bit playful in going by what you had written, but you are right, I'm not familiar with your sensitive nature regarding anything, especially religion and religion is a touchy subject. That's why I was agreeing with your fascination.

You said that you were no longer a believer for your prayers weren't answered. Am I wrong?

Weren't you a believer by proxy, your parents' lifestyle was your lifestyle? Their belief cannot be your own, you do understand that, yes?

I don't have a problem with you being an atheist and liking to congregate and sing, I wrote as much. Pray to your own godliness, feel better if that's what works for you.

Why are you so up at arms then blowing up like a gigantic balloon? Geez. :roll:

Belinda
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by Belinda » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:39 am

WendyDarling wrote:How can folks who don't actually believe have solidarity in anything other than their unspoken disbelief. Even Jesus' apostles didn't believe and they all had bird's eye views of Jesus in action performing miracles. I get the principle of gathering, but without belief it seems more of a social event culminating in church profits. There have been prayer circle studies conducted to gauge the effectiveness of group prayer in healing very sick individuals. This study was long ago, but the findings were encouraging in that a few terminal patients gained some "unexplained/unexpected" longevity from the prayer circles and there may have been one cure.
I agree with you Wendy and this is the main reason I stopped going to church. I did belong to the Unitarian Church and attended regularly for years but I became disheartened by preaching of sermons where I would have preferred discussions . There were discussions once a week but those were not integrated into the main business which was the ritual of the service.

I have been told that Christianity is alone in the requirement of private belief. Other religions including Islam and Judaism are more about the saving function of the prayers and other rituals.

The Humanists would probably suit you, and possibly The Sea of Faith Network. I guess you are American, and the Unitarian Universalists in America may be more modernised than the Unitarians in the UK. You can find all those through a search engine.

Generally speaking, churches are geared to the lowest common denominator of critical ability among the congregation, as the church has to pay its way. It can be a lonely business belonging to the intelligentsia if you aren't associated with a university.

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Harbal
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by Harbal » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:44 pm

WendyDarling wrote: Why are you so up at arms then blowing up like a gigantic balloon? Geez. :roll:
He did the same thing with me. He's the type that jumps in with both feet without understanding what he's jumping into. Fortunately, he's only a lightweight and doesn't take much dealing with.

Walker
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by Walker » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:23 pm

Belinda wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:How can folks who don't actually believe have solidarity in anything other than their unspoken disbelief. Even Jesus' apostles didn't believe and they all had bird's eye views of Jesus in action performing miracles. I get the principle of gathering, but without belief it seems more of a social event culminating in church profits. There have been prayer circle studies conducted to gauge the effectiveness of group prayer in healing very sick individuals. This study was long ago, but the findings were encouraging in that a few terminal patients gained some "unexplained/unexpected" longevity from the prayer circles and there may have been one cure.
I agree with you Wendy and this is the main reason I stopped going to church. I did belong to the Unitarian Church and attended regularly for years but I became disheartened by preaching of sermons where I would have preferred discussions . There were discussions once a week but those were not integrated into the main business which was the ritual of the service.

I have been told that Christianity is alone in the requirement of private belief. Other religions including Islam and Judaism are more about the saving function of the prayers and other rituals.

The Humanists would probably suit you, and possibly The Sea of Faith Network. I guess you are American, and the Unitarian Universalists in America may be more modernised than the Unitarians in the UK. You can find all those through a search engine.

Generally speaking, churches are geared to the lowest common denominator of critical ability among the congregation, as the church has to pay its way. It can be a lonely business belonging to the intelligentsia if you aren't associated with a university.

*

Analysis need not carry the burden of judgments, comparative values, good/bad, etc.

- When a group of people gather to make the same sound vibrations, the sound vibrations cause all the individual bodies to align brain-wave frequencies to a commonly shared amplitude.

- This phenomenon is non-conceptual.
- It is simply physical.

- The people within the group all produce the same sound vibrations, at the same time.
- Sound waves have physical effects upon the body.
- Sound is efficient at engaging and holding attention.
- Individuals experiencing the same sound waves engage physical attention upon a shared phenomena.
- At a common frequency of physical vibration, individuals in the group physically respond to the shared environment with the same thoughts, at the same time.

- An hour a week of this may not reveal this phenomena to understanding the observations. The effects of an hour a week will translate into a shared, conceptual attitude that gets reinforced.
- During such a brief time, attention may also be distracted and not completely present to the phenomenon of the group.

- However, an extended week of continuity will align the minds.
- Individuals will think the same thoughts.

- Since people are smart they will see one another awakening to this realization in the faces of one other, and everyone becomes a mirror of everyone. Shared spontaneity. This is ritualized within the customs of a tradition, such as when Catholics en masse seek out as many eyes as possible in the congregation, in a short span of time, while saying the same words … “peace be with you.”

- Group mind.

- The physicality of group mind gets watered down into the concepts of the particular tradition.

- However, the dualistic concepts of the tradition, or religion, also engage memory and interest (according to learned values) to return and align mind in physical relationship.

thedoc
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by thedoc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:40 pm

Walker wrote: - When a group of people gather to make the same sound vibrations, the sound vibrations cause all the individual bodies to align brain-wave frequencies to a commonly shared amplitude.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v5eBf2KwF8

Walker
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by Walker » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:08 pm

Wow. Amazing!

Did you notice the two on the right were the last to get in step.

:lol:

thedoc
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by thedoc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:42 pm

Walker wrote:
Wow. Amazing!

Did you notice the two on the right were the last to get in step.

:lol:
Yes, there's always a couple of non-conformists who try to buck the system as long as possible.

Every once in awhile one of them is smart enough to keep his mouth shut when in a crowd of people who don't think the same way, it took me many years to learn that.

bobevenson
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by bobevenson » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:00 pm

A better question is why pray at all since there is no scientific evidence that praying has any effect on anything.

WendyDarling
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by WendyDarling » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:12 pm

bobevenson wrote:A better question is why pray at all since there is no scientific evidence that praying has any effect on anything.
Research studies have been done to gather evidence that group prayers for the ill are beneficial. I haven't checked online to see if any of those studies are documented. The research I am familiar with was seen in a documentary eons ago.

Why not ask for help? Formal and informal prayers may be answered with unexpected help. But I wouldn't recommend hexing anyone, for that may become a regret if answered.

WendyDarling
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by WendyDarling » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:28 pm

I don't care for organized religions much. God and I have had our struggles, but the relationship He and I have is unbreakable. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. as organized religions forget what is most important which is one's relationship with God. Forget all the hoopla, forget the herd, and just be self-aware if you're searching for that relationship. :roll: What's needed from God and what does God need from you? Whew! *stepping down from soapbox* :D

thedoc
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Re: Since God is omnipresent, why congregate to pray?

Post by thedoc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:32 pm

bobevenson wrote:A better question is why pray at all since there is no scientific evidence that praying has any effect on anything.
It's convent to ignore evidence that does not support or contradicts what you are preaching. There is evidence to support the idea that prayer helps the subject of the prayer. Sometimes just knowing that others care about you is enough to make the person feel better and the healing happens better than expected.

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