I KNOW 'God' exists ask me about it i experienced the TESTamenT

[Belinda]

I think that you and I agree, Lacewing, but that we define 'religion' slightly differently. For instance I'd include any emotive ideology under 'religion' whether or not the ideology has any interest in supernatural orders of existence.

I accounted myself a Humanist for years, regularly attending meetings and sort of identifying myself as a Humanist. I still do to a large extent. I always felt that Humanism groups are a little marred by some people holding the notion that churchiness is different in kind from Humanism. I don't believe that it is different except as a matter of degree of the autonomy of individuals. Some "churchiness", notably Islam, is at the authoritarian end of a continuum where Humanism is at the liberal end of the continuum and the Quakers and Unitarians are close to the liberal end.

[Lacewing]

I think that you and I agree, Lacewing, but that we define 'religion' slightly differently. For instance I'd include any emotive ideology under 'religion' whether or not the ideology has any interest in supernatural orders of existence.

I can see the value and attraction of "tribally" gathering to unify in agreement and agenda/direction... although I remain very wary of it. The idea of "religion" is, I think, ruined for me... so I have to think of such attributes and benefits in other ways/terms. I try to see the value in everything, while at the same time not buying completely into anything. Religion (to me) seems like a complete "buy in". Almost like it becomes "a master", of which no questioning beyond can occur.

I genuinely love connecting with people in a tribal way... where we gain the benefits of support and love and broader awareness/learning... but I bolt as soon as it starts to feel dogmatic or controlling. I think this struggle is part of the natural transition/evolution from "traditional" religions to more modernly-based and flexible tribal bonds/units. I think a lot of us are still figuring out how to do it. It's sort of a quantum leap in our development as individuals and groups, it seems. I remain hopeful that, in my lifetime, I'll get to see what I and others are actually capable of collectively sharing and thinking in whole new sustainable ways that are not built on fear or control. I like to think it's possible.

[Belinda]

Lacewing wrote:

try to see the value in everything, while at the same time not buying completely into anything. Religion (to me) seems like a complete "buy in". Almost like it becomes "a master", of which no questioning beyond can occur.

I guess that you have not been to a Unitarian service or understood that Unitarianism is creedless.

[Lacewing]

Lacewing wrote:

try to see the value in everything, while at the same time not buying completely into anything. Religion (to me) seems like a complete "buy in". Almost like it becomes "a master", of which no questioning beyond can occur.

I guess that you have not been to a Unitarian service or understood that Unitarianism is creedless.

I've been to a few Ananda church services in the past... and I enjoyed the spirit of them... but I think the "church" environment has been so spoiled for me, it's hard to get past it.

Now maybe if the gatherings were outside in nature more often... with dancing... ...and without photos of "enlightened ones" (which feels like a form of idol worship to me... sorry... I just seem super sensitive to these things)... then maybe I would be inspired to keep joining in. Are there Unitarian services like that? Or am I describing only Grateful Dead shows and pagan gatherings?

[Belinda]

I was a Unitarian for years at the same time as I was a Humanist. Many Unitarians are also Humanists. I bet there are many Unitarians who would like to join in Pagan jollifications. I would, if I were young enough to dance and worship the Goddess in beautiful surroundings However, as Protestant dissidents, Unitarians tend to be fairly sober and the church services are too conventionally hymn sandwich for my preference. My experience with Humanists is that we don't sing and dance a lot either. Humanists tend to be rather cerebral. I guess that Roman Catholics are more colourful than other sects as at least there is something to look at in holy pictures and statues and priests doing ritualistic movements and RCs sometimes have good music too. Overall, I dislike creeds of all sorts, and singing and dancing in otherwise deserted woodlands is a worshipful thing to do and certainly gets people away from the brainwork.

[attofishpi]

Yes. And btw, a so-called 'pantheist' is just a mediaeval version of an atheist. Anyone who calls himself that today is just a wanker.

I never said i am a "Pantheist" ..I said i am a "Panentheist" - they are vastly different. (shit for brains.)

For some reason that makes you seem like even more of a wanker.

Why?

[attofishpi]

Yes, but you appear to fail to real eyes that if weren't for the believers the wisdom of great men like Jesus would have been lost.

Would it? If it was real wisdom, why would it need believers?

So Christ's message was not real wisdom?

Wisdom has no connection with belief or disbelief. I have yet to come across anyone who does not believe in wisdom.

Yes it does, when one is actually tested by this God\'God' entity after sin, belief in what one was taught regarding 'God' is extremely important.

[Harbal]

For some reason that makes you seem like even more of a wanker.

Why?

Well I suppose I have to admit to a certain amount of preconditioned bias as, having read a number of your posts, I already know that you are, indeed, a wanker. It's not only that, though. I think when people describe themselves as anything ending in "ist" they run the risk of sounding like a wanker. Obviously, this doesn't apply to those with the formal qualifications that entitle them to call themselves an ist, such as a dentist, for example. I'm afraid there's no way round it, Fish Pie, "panentheist" is just another name for wanker.

[attofishpi]

Why?

Well I suppose I have to admit to a certain amount of preconditioned bias as, having read a number of your posts, I already know that you are, indeed, a wanker. It's not only that, though. I think when people describe themselves as anything ending in "ist" they run the risk of sounding like a wanker. Obviously, this doesn't apply to those with the formal qualifications that entitle them to call themselves an ist, such as a dentist, for example. I'm afraid there's no way round it, Fish Pie, "panentheist" is just another name for wanker.

So as an atheist you are somewhat of a super wanker in the middle of some sort of wankathon. Have you ever contributed anything in the way of an intelligent debate on this forum because all people see from you is an attempt at wit which falls far short of the term, wit, i guess that makes you a super witless wanker.

[Lacewing]

...in the middle of some sort of wankathon.

Now that is something I do NOT care to see.

[Harbal]

all people see from you is an attempt at wit which falls far short of the term, wit,

If it doesn't resemble wit how do you know that is what it's supposed to be?

[attofishpi]

all people see from you is an attempt at wit which falls far short of the term, wit,

If it doesn't resemble wit how do you know that is what it's supposed to be?

Oh, you are one of those people that can't distinguish actual wit from one attempting wit. You are really bright <- that's sarcasm.

[Harbal]

Oh, you are one of those people that can't distinguish actual wit from one attempting wit. You are really bright <- that's sarcasm.

Okay, so we've established two things: Firstly, I am not funny and, secondly, you are a wanker. Do you know what, Fish Pie? I think I'm going to settle for that.

[Lacewing]

Okay, so we've established two things: Firstly, I am not funny and, secondly, you are a wanker.

I can agree with this with the following correction: Harbal truly has a great wit (which has been publicly acknowledged by many).

Great wits are often not appreciated by wankers.

[Harbal]

I can agree with this with the following correction: Harbal truly has a great wit (which has been publicly acknowledged by many).

Lacewing, I have always had a great respect for your opinion, especially when it has coincided with mine. I never fail to be impressed by your wisdom and judgement.

Great wits are often not appreciated by wankers.

I think we can safely say that's very true in this case.