THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:23 pm

Dontaskme wrote:I've already established many times in my posts that all knowledge is illusory. It's made-up.
How do you KNOW that? Maybe you are just making it all up?

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by bobevenson » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:03 pm

Dontaskme wrote:There is only one true religion that does away with all beliefs.
On the other hand, the Church of Ouzo proclaims a single belief: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."-Revelation 17:17 (a description of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in chapter and verse)

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:32 pm

seeds wrote:
Something that is “aware” of something else implies the presence of a central or focalized point of consciousness that is capable of processing sense data.
Awareness has to be fundamental in order for anything to be known or experienced...awareness is this immediate unmoving unchanging unborn ground of being in which consciousness/mind arise..arising as the sense of beingness or aliveness, this sense of being is also called mind activity or conscious activity. This activity is an appearance in awareness, which is constantly changing it's state of being, it comes and goes, while awareness does not. When we are in deep sleep, we are not conscious we exist, and yet we are existing because we are awareness which is our real self prior to our conscious sense of self which is the illusory self. When conscious mind activity ceases pure awareness is still present, nothing happens to pure awareness, it is this permanent unchanging unborn state in which the sense of you consciousness/mind arises and falls...that sense is not you, you are prior to that. You are the unborn I AM awareness in which every belief, feeling, thought, experience arises. You are not the belief, feeling, thought, experience, you are that in which all these things arise and fall.
seeds wrote:In which case, you cannot simply offer up a vague and nebulous term such as “unborn awareness” and then expect it (whatever “it” is supposed to represent) to be aware of anything at all.
Awareness is not a thing, it is that in which things appear .. awareness is not aware of some thing outside itself, it is that which is projecting a thing from it's own no thing self. It knows itself via it's own projection.They cancel each other out, so nothing actually is happening, it's all the play of illusion.
seeds wrote:You have not explored the implications of your statement deeply enough and have simply assumed that nobody would wonder how a “cloud of life energy” (for lack of a better description), could somehow process mental holography (thought).
Well no one can ever know how ''energetic thought'' appears to itself... it happens though because you are the awareness in which thought appears. You can't know how or why it happens, because you are that happening, you cannot step outside of the happening to examine it. A thought can never ''step out'' of itself.Awareness is not in time or space. It is in itself, as itself, alone. It is only the mind that is the thinker of a thought. And what is the mind but a conglomeration of thoughts? Where is the mind apart from thoughts? If there is no thought, can there be a mind? They cancel each other out. And what happens to you? Nothing. You don't fall apart. You don't disappear. What is left? Pure awareness.
seeds wrote:Furthermore, you have created a boldly titled thread in which you have proclaimed that the fundamental mistake of religions is that they do not embrace “non-duality.”
No, I didn't say that, I said Nonduality is that which is not a belief system itself, unlike man-made religions are.It's message points directly to the emptiness unborn pure awareness in which everything appears, and is that which does away with all belief systems. Simply because one doesn't have to believe one is ...One simply is, and you are that Isness or pure awareness right here now, nowhere.
seeds wrote:Yet ironically (and seemingly unbeknownst to you), in your statement that - “...it’s aware of thought...” – you have confirmed the existence of the “dual” nature of the very realm of which you are touting to be “non-dual.”
Life or reality is Nondual. There is just presence/awareness, which is prior to all manifestation, whether it be thoughts, forms, or objects. Yet all that stuff is also presence/awareness, because there is nothing other that that.
seeds wrote:Hopefully this isn't too confusing, but first you have the “it” (as in that which is aware), and then you have “thought” (or that which the “it” is aware of) - ergo “two” things.
There is no being aware of something separate from the awareness itself, that's the point being made here...to be aware of some thing implies an awareness here, and an object over there separate from the awareness here. But that's the illusion I'm talking about, the awareness of an object or thought is the thought/object. It's one unitary action. When awareness knows sensation.. consciousness/mind is born, only the mind is born, appearing as a phantom self. Your mind wants to define itself and justify it's existence through it's thoughts, but those thoughts are not you.You are that which the thoughts appear and disappear. Identification with the thought as being you gives the sense you exist, but you are already existence, prior to any thought.
seeds wrote:I am completely on board with the idea that the fundamental level of the “ALL-THAT-IS” exists in a state of “ONENESS” (in the Spinozan sense) in that there is but one basic substance composing all of reality.

However, I cannot help but to visualize that “ONENESS” substance as being an amalgam of the essence of life, and of that through-which life expresses itself (the essence of thought) – thus an implicit “duality.”
_______
Agreed.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:40 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:There is only one true religion that does away with all beliefs.
On the other hand, the Church of Ouzo proclaims a single belief: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."-Revelation 17:17 (a description of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in chapter and verse)
All beliefs, are ultimately about the same God...because all beliefs arise from the exact same place.. which is here now.. nowhere.

That the God beliefs appear different, is irrelevant, there is only One God and that One God is No thing being Everything including other Gods and Beliefs.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by bobevenson » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:46 pm

I'm afraid Revelation 17:17 trumps your belief.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:59 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:I've already established many times in my posts that all knowledge is illusory. It's made-up.
How do you KNOW that? Maybe you are just making it all up?
The one that makes up knowledge cannot be known except through the knowledge it makes up ..so that should tell you all you need to know about the how?

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:02 pm

bobevenson wrote:I'm afraid Revelation 17:17 trumps your belief.
A belief cannot trump another belief...a belief is a trickless trick.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by bobevenson » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:07 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
bobevenson wrote:I'm afraid Revelation 17:17 trumps your belief.
A belief cannot trump another belief...a belief is a trickless trick.
Based on your ploys and artifices, I believe you would be a good Ouzo player.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:05 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:I've already established many times in my posts that all knowledge is illusory. It's made-up.
How do you KNOW that? Maybe you are just making it all up?
The one that makes up knowledge cannot be known except through the knowledge it makes up ..so that should tell you all you need to know about the how?
That means you only think this nonsense. By your own admission that everything you think you know is an illusion, as if that invalidates it for others. In fact it only invalidates your self.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by thedoc » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:00 am

HexHammer wrote: ..else plz provide evidense for your mad claims.
Why? Do you really think I care what you think of my statements. My statements are for the benefit of the lurkers who may be reading this thread, and the stand on their own.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by HexHammer » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:02 am

thedoc wrote:
HexHammer wrote: ..else plz provide evidense for your mad claims.
Why? Do you really think I care what you think of my statements. My statements are for the benefit of the lurkers who may be reading this thread, and the stand on their own.
:roll: lame excuses!

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:10 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
That means you only think this nonsense. By your own admission that everything you think you know is an illusion, as if that invalidates it for others. In fact it only invalidates your self.
Life is Nondual. Duality is illusory. And that's that.

All else is irrational make-belief.

There is no other Self. There is only Self because there is no other than Self.

If you want to believe in Two Selves then quite frankly that's none of my concern. I already know myself...and it's not what I think it is, it's what I know it is.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:49 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Life is Nondual. Duality is illusory. And that's that.

All else is irrational make-belief.

There is no other Self. There is only Self because there is no other than Self.

If you want to believe in Two Selves then quite frankly that's none of my concern. I already know myself...and it's not what I think it is, it's what I know it is.
In search for truth.

You cannot make it an object of knowledge, but you can experience it, you can drink of it, you can have the taste of it – it is existential.

The scientist remains separate from the object he is studying. He is always separate from the object; hence knowledge is possible, because the knower is different from the known. But the one moving into his subjectivity, knows the knower and the known are one.

When the knower and the known are one there is no possibility of knowledge. Yes, you can dance it, but you cannot say it.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by attofishpi » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:28 am

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote:
Lacewing wrote: This is how I see it too.
Really? How so?
(Atto... as soon as you start acting like an ass, you're going back on my ignore list... so I don't expect this exchange to last long.)

What I see (and what seems readily apparent) is how much of our lives and world and knowledge is made-up by ourselves, and how we assign to all of that the meaning that works for us. Our "knowledge" is based on the limitations of our perception and imagination at any given point in time. What we think we know, shifts or evaporates when we see or determine something else/more -- whether within a lifetime, or over generations. That's how I see knowledge as illusory. And "meaning" doesn't exist without us fabricating it.
But surely you dont consider ALL knowledge illusory?

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Lacewing » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:09 pm

attofishpi wrote:But surely you dont consider ALL knowledge illusory?
I suspect that EVERYTHING we are aware of is illusory... so that would include all knowledge. I don't think the material world and human understanding/awareness is some kind of solid and complete manifestation that we could think it is. Rather, it's ALL ENERGY manifesting in this form (as well as countless other dimensions/forms), and a lot of our ideas "work" because everything is naturally connected. Our "knowledge" is a product of this physical manifestation, yet even for us, our knowledge evolves. But it serves a purpose for us within the brief time periods we exist... and that's good enough for our experience. It seems reasonable to guess that with energy shifts and expansions, laws and rules appear to shift as well. That's what I mean by illusory.

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