THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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attofishpi
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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by attofishpi » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:25 pm

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote:But surely you dont consider ALL knowledge illusory?
I suspect that EVERYTHING we are aware of is illusory... so that would include all knowledge.
And this would include formal logic and mathematics, such that 1+1=2 is an illusion?
Lacewing wrote:I don't think the material world and human understanding/awareness is some kind of solid and complete manifestation that we could think it is. Rather, it's ALL ENERGY manifesting in this form (as well as countless other dimensions/forms), and a lot of our ideas "work" because everything is naturally connected.
This is what makes me quirk a little in my dealings with you. That you comprehend the dimensions and overall connectedness of the energy, yet negate the concept of there being an intelligence behind the connection...
Lacewing wrote:Our "knowledge" is a product of this physical manifestation, yet even for us, our knowledge evolves. But it serves a purpose for us within the brief time periods we exist... and that's good enough for our experience. It seems reasonable to guess that with energy shifts and expansions, laws and rules appear to shift as well. That's what I mean by illusory.
Fair enough but within this ever shifting dimensional shift that constitutes our reality, which i totally agree with, we are still left with logic and comprehension with which the ever shifting environment forms - our reality. Such that you know you are a human and likely born to a male and female parentage and that if you add one to one you get two.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Lacewing » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:39 pm

Lacewing wrote:I don't think the material world and human understanding/awareness is some kind of solid and complete manifestation that we could think it is. Rather, it's ALL ENERGY manifesting in this form (as well as countless other dimensions/forms), and a lot of our ideas "work" because everything is naturally connected.
attofishpi wrote:This is what makes me quirk a little in my dealings with you. That you comprehend the dimensions and overall connectedness of the energy, yet negate the concept of there being an intelligence behind the connection...
Because "intelligence" is OUR concept. It's OUR limited construct based on what we think intelligence is. We personify it...and model it to ourselves. There needs NOT be any personification in energy. This is what I am resistant to. Connectedness requires no intelligence -- its simply what IS because all is one.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by attofishpi » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:48 pm

I reluctantly reply since you negated the important points in my reply - a cop out as typical around these parts. Intelligence is not OUR concept its something of a gift. When you comprehend that beyond the planck scale at the tiniest comprehension of size that only maths at this stage can conceive, there is either an event or not - ergo we are in a digital universe, and this digital universe does have an intelligence behind it and most that dont even know it exists call it God.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Lacewing » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:08 pm

attofishpi wrote:I reluctantly reply since you negated the important points in my reply
I don't know what you're talking about. I thought I gave a complete response that covered all that you said, even if not point-by-point. I just have a different perspective than you do, and I've been willing to try to describe it because you asked nicely. :)
attofishpi wrote:Intelligence is not OUR concept its something of a gift. When you comprehend that beyond the planck scale at the tiniest comprehension of size that only maths at this stage can conceive, there is either an event or not - ergo we are in a digital universe, and this digital universe does have an intelligence behind it and most that dont even know it exists call it God.
What WE consider as intelligence, could just be natural completeness and perfection... no? We may be mesmerized by it... it may seem fantastic to us... but it is just what exists in completeness and perfection. You can call it "intelligence" but then it's just a few steps to personifying it. And that's our creation.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by attofishpi » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:17 pm

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote:Intelligence is not OUR concept its something of a gift. When you comprehend that beyond the planck scale at the tiniest comprehension of size that only maths at this stage can conceive, there is either an event or not - ergo we are in a digital universe, and this digital universe does have an intelligence behind it and most that dont even know it exists call it God.
What WE consider as intelligence, could just be natural completeness and perfection... no? We may be mesmerized by it... it may seem fantastic to us... but it is just what exists in completeness and perfection. You can call it "intelligence" but then it's just a few steps to personifying it. And that's our creation.
Sure Lacewing - could be that - you remind me of someone i know that believes in spirituality but as soon as the mentioning of 'God' is made he gets his ass tied up in knots - cant distinguish the dumb ass indoctrination of it all re 'God' from just a comprehension of a being that one can akin to true spirituality. Because if there is not a 'spirit' a 'God' behind it all - then why bother being spiritual.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Lacewing » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:34 pm

attofishpi wrote:Sure Lacewing - could be that - you remind me of someone i know that believes in spirituality but as soon as the mentioning of 'God' is made he gets his ass tied up in knots
Ah gee... you had to go and screw it up. Had to try and insult me through some sneaky side door. You lasted longer than I thought you would.
attofishpi wrote:Because if there is not a 'spirit' a 'God' behind it all - then why bother being spiritual.
I don't see any requirements or separation for or from being spiritual. It's ALL ONE. It's built-in. There is nothing to do or be. We are it. We can attune to all sorts of awareness and energies. Some of us will attune to material aspects. Some will attune to spiritual aspects. Some will claim spiritual aspects to be a god. Some will not claim spiritual aspects to be that. Some will see separations and rules and concepts... where others do not. So whose ass is tied up in knots?

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by attofishpi » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:42 pm

Lacewing wrote: So whose ass is tied up in knots?


Sorry, i granted you more aptitude than was deserved. The 'ass tied up in knots' if you re- read was in relation to the 'dumb ass indoctrination' (in relation to God)...but as usual you just immediately thought it was a personal dig. No matter. Please do put me back on ignore.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Lacewing » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:46 pm

attofishpi wrote:Sorry, i granted you more aptitude than was deserved.

...as usual you just immediately thought it was a personal dig.
Yep, you're so misunderstood! :lol:

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by attofishpi » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:49 pm

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote:Sorry, i granted you more aptitude than was deserved.

...as usual you just immediately thought it was a personal dig.
Yep, you're so misunderstood! :lol:
YA THAT was a personal dig!! Well Done!!

Thanks for the White Discussion. :)

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by seeds » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:21 pm

_______

(Look into my eyes :shock: - these are not the droids you are looking for and the following is not a “long” post :P)
seeds wrote: You have not explored the implications of your statement deeply enough and have simply assumed that nobody would wonder how a “cloud of life energy” (for lack of a better description), could somehow process mental holography (thought).
Dontaskme wrote: Well no one can ever know how ''energetic thought'' appears to itself... it happens though because you are the awareness in which thought appears. You can't know how or why it happens, because you are that happening, you cannot step outside of the happening to examine it. A thought can never ''step out'' of itself. Awareness is not in time or space. It is in itself, as itself, alone. It is only the mind that is the thinker of a thought.
No.

The “thinker” of a thought is the ineffable (unvisualizable) “I-AM” who sits at the throne of consciousness within the mind.
Dontaskme wrote: And what is the mind but a conglomeration of thoughts?
The human mind is the “living ethereal medium” in which thoughts are created and suspended – just as the universe (from a Panentheistic perspective) is the living medium in which the thoughts of a higher “I-AM” are created and suspended (“as above, so below”).
Dontaskme wrote: Where is the mind apart from thoughts?
The mind is an inseparable aspect and extension of the living, self-aware “agent” of consciousness who owns the mind (again, the “I-AM,” for lack of a better term).
Dontaskme wrote: If there is no thought, can there be a mind?
Yes.
Dontaskme wrote: They cancel each other out.
Nonsense!
Dontaskme wrote: And what happens to you? Nothing. You don't fall apart. You don't disappear.
Correct. But a conclusion arrived-at through dubious means.

It also begs the question: do you - as an individualization of personal self-awareness - disappear at the moment of physical death?

If no, then non-duality is a non-starter because we will all continue to exist as individuals in a transcendent context.

If yes, then you are promulgating the nihilistic concept of our oblivion.

(Oh, I know, we will continue on as “Pure awareness.” Can't you see how nondescript and silly that sounds?)
Dontaskme wrote: What is left? Pure awareness.
No.

If there is no thought, then what is left is the living, self-aware owner of the mind.

For example, at the moment when you were first jettisoned from your mother's womb, there were basically no thoughts present within your mind, yet you - (the conscious owner of the mind) - existed. You existed, but not as “Pure awareness,” but as an individualization of living consciousness with a unique (one-of-a-kind) “personal” identity.

Again, you are positing the absurd notion that “Pure awareness” (which, to me, sounds like a nebulous “field” of life energy) could somehow be directly and intentionally cognizant of something.
seeds wrote: Furthermore, you have created a boldly titled thread in which you have proclaimed that the fundamental mistake of religions is that they do not embrace “non-duality.”
Dontaskme wrote: No, I didn't say that, I said Nonduality is that which is not a belief system itself, unlike man-made religions are. It's message points directly to the emptiness unborn pure awareness in which everything appears, and is that which does away with all belief systems.
Can you not see the irony in your words?

You are promoting a belief system that believes it is doing away with belief systems.
seeds wrote: Yet ironically (and seemingly unbeknownst to you), in your statement that - “...it’s aware of thought...” – you have confirmed the existence of the “dual” nature of the very realm of which you are touting to be “non-dual.”
Dontaskme wrote: Life or reality is Nondual.
You say that with a great deal of confidence. Yet earlier, you said that you “agreed” with the following...
seeds wrote: I am completely on board with the idea that the fundamental level of the “ALL-THAT-IS” exists in a state of “ONENESS” (in the Spinozan sense) in that there is but one basic substance composing all of reality.

However, I cannot help but to visualize that “ONENESS” substance as being an amalgam of the essence of life, and of that through-which life expresses itself (the essence of thought) – thus an implicit “duality.”
I appreciate the fact that you agree with me on something. However, what you are agreeing with seems to suggest that your stance on non-duality has a little bit of “wiggle room” (and that’s a good thing).

Btw, you imply that what you are promoting is not a belief system, yet there is no mistaking its resemblance to “Advaita Vedanta” from Hinduism.

I mean you no offense, but have a look at “The Advaita Trap” cartoon on YouTube to understand what you sound like. Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/4KXidr0z1RY

And trust me; I am on your side when it comes to realizing the illusory nature of reality.

However, I personally believe that a wondrous eternal destiny awaits each of us - one that does not end with a re-absorption of our individual consciousness into some kind of homogenous state of “Oneness.”

(It never ceases to amaze me how the word “Oneness” can make oblivion sound glorious and desirable.)

Again, check out “The Advaita Trap” spoof on YouTube - https://youtu.be/4KXidr0z1RY
_______

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:23 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
That means you only think this nonsense. By your own admission that everything you think you know is an illusion, as if that invalidates it for others. In fact it only invalidates your self.
Life is Nondual. Duality is illusory. And that's that.

All else is irrational make-belief.

There is no other Self. There is only Self because there is no other than Self.
You are deluding yourself.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:06 am

seeds wrote:

No.

The “thinker” of a thought is the ineffable (unvisualizable) “I-AM” who sits at the throne of consciousness within the mind.
No.

The I-Am Awareness does not think .. it is not the thinker.
There is no thinker present in pure-awareness which is another word for PURE BEINGNESS

(thoughts) spontaneously appear and disappear in awareness without cause and are instantly known as they arise by the only knowing there is which is consciousness. Consciousness/mind is born as each thought arises in awareness...

A thought is the illusory appearance of the sense of ''self-awareness'' aka Conscious mind)...the conscious mind is an appearance in that which never appears but is the permanent unmoving ground state of every appearance.

The (thought) is the thinker. The thinking is the thinker itself. The thought has unknowingly created the idea of a thinker. But, There is no thinker separate from the thought, therefore the thinker is illusory.

Awareness in which all thoughts arise does not need the presence of thought to be what it is. When thought is absent, awareness remain. It is the ground of all arising phenomena. It is first and prior to any illusory thought based sense of self-awareness.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:16 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
You are deluding yourself.
The Self is never deluded. Simply because there isn't one.

Self is, but it doesn't belong to anyone. It is one within itself. It is No self..or Non-duality.

The one that assumes it's being a self is an illusion...appearing in this already existing No Self.

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:46 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
You are deluding yourself.
The Self is never deluded. Simply because there isn't one.

Self is, but it doesn't belong to anyone. It is one within itself. It is No self..or Non-duality.

The one that assumes it's being a self is an illusion...appearing in this already existing No Self.
It does not get clearer by saying it again and again. You did not make sense, you are not making sense, and if you go on like this you shall never make sense.
This is the heart of your delusion that you believe the stuff you are typing.
Maybe you don't and deep down know you are talking nonsense. Who knows? Who cares?

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Re: THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:54 pm

seeds wrote: Can you not see the irony in your words?

You are promoting a belief system that believes it is doing away with belief systems.
Yes, ''two but not two'' is ironic and seemingly self-contradictory and is why life for human mind is irrational...simply because there is no other Self apart from Nondual Self....aka Awareness.

As Awareness ..the awareness of what you (the me) believe.... is awareness aware of a belief system. The belief does not belong to an individual ''me'' ...the ''me'' is the belief. Awareness is not a belief, awareness is without doubt.

Awareness does not need to believe to be what it is.. you are awareness, you simply are...there is no other thing outside of what you are to hold a belief that you are...except an idea arising in awareness aware of the idea.

" Stop believing in anything and you may find that which is truth itself."

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