How God could fail to convey His message?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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thedoc
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by thedoc » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:01 am

-1- wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:16 pm

True Scotsman fallacy.

Ad hominem fallacy.
A fallacy is not necessarily wrong, it's just not a valid argument.

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attofishpi
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:03 am

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:35 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:09 pm
I know for a fact that God\'God' exists
Okay, so that's great and it works for you, whatever the reasons.

So, in consideration of all the other people in the world who "know" and experience differently than you do, would it be reasonable for us to conclude that a vast range of realities must exist, such that each person's "knowing" is personal and true for their experience?
Ive only ever heard one person on TV in an interview confirm he knows, and on this forum - thedoc. Of course we have different experiences its not like we are all walking in the same pair of shoes, it goes without saying.

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Lacewing
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:45 am

attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:03 am
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:35 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:09 pm
I know for a fact that God\'God' exists
Okay, so that's great and it works for you, whatever the reasons.

So, in consideration of all the other people in the world who "know" and experience differently than you do, would it be reasonable for us to conclude that a vast range of realities must exist, such that each person's "knowing" is personal and true for their experience?
Ive only ever heard one person on TV in an interview confirm he knows, and on this forum - thedoc. Of course we have different experiences its not like we are all walking in the same pair of shoes, it goes without saying.
Do you realize that I'm not talking only about people who say they know "God" -- I'm talking about non-theists as well as other people's MANY gods over time, and what ALL of these other people (including non-theists) "know" as true for themselves. So when you say you know for a fact that God exists... that is YOUR "fact" and your experience and your god... perhaps very real and profound to you... while other people "know" and experience different truths which are very real and profound for them. Do you agree that this vast variation across time and humankind reflects that there are MANY REALITIES/TRUTHS... and can you accept the validity of that as much as you accept the validity of your own experience?

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attofishpi
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:36 am

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:45 am
attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:03 am
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:35 pm

Okay, so that's great and it works for you, whatever the reasons.

So, in consideration of all the other people in the world who "know" and experience differently than you do, would it be reasonable for us to conclude that a vast range of realities must exist, such that each person's "knowing" is personal and true for their experience?
Ive only ever heard one person on TV in an interview confirm he knows, and on this forum - thedoc. Of course we have different experiences its not like we are all walking in the same pair of shoes, it goes without saying.
Do you realize that I'm not talking only about people who say they know "God" -- I'm talking about non-theists as well as other people's MANY gods over time, and what ALL of these other people (including non-theists) "know" as true for themselves. So when you say you know for a fact that God exists... that is YOUR "fact" and your experience and your god... perhaps very real and profound to you... while other people "know" and experience different truths which are very real and profound for them. Do you agree that this vast variation across time and humankind reflects that there are MANY REALITIES/TRUTHS... and can you accept the validity of that as much as you accept the validity of your own experience?
No.
Whatever people of differing faiths have experienced of this entity, well good for them but ultimately it is the same God.

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Lacewing
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:19 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:36 am
No.
Whatever people of differing faiths have experienced of this entity, well good for them but ultimately it is the same God.
It is fascinating that you continually exclude non-theists from the question I asked you, and you insist that any other faiths are experiencing the same entity that you are, even if their experiences have been different... all throughout history.

So it appears that you are either unwilling or actually unable to fathom realities significantly different than your own. Yours is the most valid and true, if not the only valid and true one, yes? And you have extraordinarily rare contact with, and awareness of, this entity you know as God -- so that puts you in a most fascinating position, doesn't it?

If your God is the only reality/truth, then why do all of these other realities/truths exist? And why is your God separate from them?

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attofishpi
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:50 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:19 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:36 am
No.
Whatever people of differing faiths have experienced of this entity, well good for them but ultimately it is the same God.
It is fascinating that you continually exclude non-theists from the question I asked you, and you insist that any other faiths are experiencing the same entity that you are, even if their experiences have been different... all throughout history.

So it appears that you are either unwilling or actually unable to fathom realities significantly different than your own. Yours is the most valid and true, if not the only valid and true one, yes? And you have extraordinarily rare contact with, and awareness of, this entity you know as God -- so that puts you in a most fascinating position, doesn't it?

If your God is the only reality/truth, then why do all of these other realities/truths exist? And why is your God separate from them?
What do you mean by "other realities" and "other truths"? What exactly are you swinging at lacewing?

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Lacewing
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:17 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:50 pm
What do you mean by "other realities" and "other truths"? What exactly are you swinging at lacewing?
The realities and truths that have nothing at all to do with your God. What exactly are you missing and ignoring, atto?

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attofishpi
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:27 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:17 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:50 pm
What do you mean by "other realities" and "other truths"? What exactly are you swinging at lacewing?
The realities and truths that have nothing at all to do with your God.
Please provide examples and I will be certain to address them.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:17 pm
What exactly are you missing and ignoring, atto?
My dear woman, I am simply asking you to define whatever these realities and truths are, I am ignoring nothing.

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Lacewing
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:11 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:27 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:17 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:50 pm
What do you mean by "other realities" and "other truths"? What exactly are you swinging at lacewing?
The realities and truths that have nothing at all to do with your God.
Please provide examples and I will be certain to address them.
This forum is FULL of people providing examples of realities and truths that have nothing to do with your god. Whether or not you share those realities and truths, is not the issue. They don't need your approval. If you are refusing, however, to even acknowledge their existence, that is a willfully blinded condition to all that surrounds you.

So, is this true: You are either unwilling or actually unable to fathom realities and truths significantly different than your own?

Is your reality and truth the only valid one?

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-1-
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by -1- » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:14 am

thedoc wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:01 am
-1- wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:16 pm

True Scotsman fallacy.

Ad hominem fallacy.
A fallacy is not necessarily wrong, it's just not a valid argument.
And whoever says what you said on a philosophy website is an idiot. Pardon me.

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-1-
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by -1- » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:21 am

thedoc wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:01 am
-1- wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:16 pm

True Scotsman fallacy.

Ad hominem fallacy.
A fallacy is not necessarily wrong, it's just not a valid argument.
I am basically sick and tired of arguing with people who do not accept logic, facts, and reason, when it comes to admitting that their entire value system is shmafu, nothing, a castle in the air, and they stick to it like tics to a coon dog, because they are basically blinded by a faith.

These people, some of whom are Attofishpi, Nick A, etc. etc., are not worth arguing with, at least not when you base your arguments on logic, and try to win that way. You can't argue with these people using reason, because their faith is stronger than their minds. They gave up reason and good thinking some time ago in favour of worship. That's their choice, but then they should not be on a philosophy website.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:03 am

-1- wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:14 am
thedoc wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:01 am
-1- wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:16 pm

True Scotsman fallacy.

Ad hominem fallacy.
A fallacy is not necessarily wrong, it's just not a valid argument.
And whoever says what you said on a philosophy website is an idiot. Pardon me.
Actually, thedoc is technically quite correct.

If one creates an invalid syllogism, that neither indicates whether the ensuing conclusion is false or true. It could be either. The only caveat is that if it is true, it will not be true on the basis of reasons provided in a fallacious form, but for some additional reason.

So you could create a syllogism like:

P1: All elephants have wings.
P2: Wings are members of Paul McCartney's band.
C: Therefore, Paul McCartney is an ex-Beatle.

The one premise is false, and one is true. There is an informal fallacy of equivocation, and also a formal fallacy of syllogistic structure (validity) evident in the example, so multiple failures of logic are here evident.

And in spite of all this, the conclusion just happens to be true.

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attofishpi
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:52 am

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:11 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:27 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:17 pm

The realities and truths that have nothing at all to do with your God.
Please provide examples and I will be certain to address them.
This forum is FULL of people providing examples of realities and truths that have nothing to do with your god. Whether or not you share those realities and truths, is not the issue. They don't need your approval. If you are refusing, however, to even acknowledge their existence, that is a willfully blinded condition to all that surrounds you.

So, is this true: You are either unwilling or actually unable to fathom realities and truths significantly different than your own?

Is your reality and truth the only valid one?
I simply don't understand what you mean by other "realities" and "truths", please provide examples if you wish further dialogue.

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Lacewing
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by Lacewing » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:52 am
I simply don't understand what you mean by other "realities" and "truths", please provide examples if you wish further dialogue.
Are you saying you don't know what these words mean?

Reality -- that which is real for you -- includes your God, right?

Truth -- that which is true for you -- includes your God, right?

Look up the definitions for reality and truth if you need to, to answer these questions.

When you say that you know for a fact that God exists, that is what is real and true for you, yes?

There are countless people whose reality and truth are different from yours. SURELY you have noticed this. This includes non-theists as well as a wide range of theists.

So would it be reasonable for us to conclude that a vast range of realities and truths exist, and that each person's "knowing" is personal and true for their own experience? If you don't think so, please explain.

This is simply assessing whether you can see and acknowledge that there is MORE that is real and true, than what is real and true for YOU. It's not that complicated. Is it beyond your comprehension?

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attofishpi
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:37 am

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am
attofishpi wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:52 am
I simply don't understand what you mean by other "realities" and "truths", please provide examples if you wish further dialogue.
Are you saying you don't know what these words mean?
No, I am perfectly aware of what they mean, but in the pluralistic context 'truths' appears as a contradiction.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am
Reality -- that which is real for you -- includes your God, right?
Via my experience of OUR reality, God exists.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am
Truth -- that which is true for you -- includes your God, right?
The truth is that God exists.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am
Look up the definitions for reality and truth if you need to, to answer these questions.
There are not multiple truths if you are talking from an atheistic POV. God either exists or it doesn't. Atheists BELIEVE God does not exist, I know that this is incorrect.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am
When you say that you know for a fact that God exists, that is what is real and true for you, yes?
It is real for all of us, just appears that the majority are not aware of God's existence.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am
There are countless people whose reality and truth are different from yours. SURELY you have noticed this. This includes non-theists as well as a wide range of theists.
Atheists in their belief that there is no God are wrong. Other theists that have experience of God I am almost certain would be experiencing the same God as I have, even though the experience projected to them will be different.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am
So would it be reasonable for us to conclude that a vast range of realities and truths exist, and that each person's "knowing" is personal and true for their own experience? If you don't think so, please explain.
Certainly there are a vast range of realities - since from my experience God IS the multiverse, or at least has the ability to conjure our dimensions such that our experience is unique.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 am
This is simply assessing whether you can see and acknowledge that there is MORE that is real and true, than what is real and true for YOU. It's not that complicated. Is it beyond your comprehension?
What is real and true for ALL of us, is that a God of some sort exists with ability to morph matter, control the dimensions that make up our reality. The fact that most theists and all atheists haven't bared witness to this, does not necessarily make their belief a truth.

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