The concept of God is incoherent

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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bahman
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The concept of God is incoherent

Post by bahman » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:08 am

We agree that God created the universe by His Divine act. We believe that God could decide about the act of creation. This requires decision before act. This is however problematic since we believe that God is in state of timeless where there is no before and after (this is true since time/change is part of creation only). This means that we have to give up either the decision or the act of creation. We exist hence we cannot give up the act of creation so we are left with the option that God cannot decide. This means that the concept of God is incoherent because He is not a person (a person can decide).

What do you think?

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attofishpi
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by attofishpi » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:41 pm

Dare i say...you are making an ASS of yourself with all your ASSumptions. And i shall add - most around here dont even believe in your main ASSumption (that God exists.)

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Dontaskme
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:44 pm

bahman wrote:We agree that God created the universe by His Divine act. We believe that God could decide about the act of creation. This requires decision before act. This is however problematic since we believe that God is in state of timeless where there is no before and after (this is true since time/change is part of creation only). This means that we have to give up either the decision or the act of creation. We exist hence we cannot give up the act of creation so we are left with the option that God cannot decide. This means that the concept of God is incoherent because He is not a person (a person can decide).

What do you think?

The concept of God is incoherent...because a concept is a dead thing.

No concept created the universe.

The universe is...but no thing has created it. The universe is without beginning or end....forever changing within itself which is essentially and fundamentally changeless...in the same context the bottom of a deep ocean remain perfectly still whilst the surface is subject to waves of movement.

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Arising_uk
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:45 pm

Dontaskme wrote:.. in the same context the bottom of a deep ocean remain perfectly still whilst the surface is subject to waves of movement.
Not heard of deep ocean currents?

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bahman
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by bahman » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:46 pm

attofishpi wrote: Dare i say...you are making an ASS of yourself with all your ASSumptions. And i shall add - most around here dont even believe in your main ASSumption (that God exists.)
What is this? An argument? Why you don't try to say something useful or leave your nonsense act?

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bahman
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by bahman » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:08 pm

Dontaskme wrote: The concept of God is incoherent...because a concept is a dead thing.
I didn't say that concepts are alive.
Dontaskme wrote: No concept created the universe.

The universe is...but no thing has created it.
That doesn't make sense.
Dontaskme wrote: The universe is without beginning or end....forever changing within itself which is essentially and fundamentally changeless...in the same context the bottom of a deep ocean remain perfectly still whilst the surface is subject to waves of movement.
An eternal (no beginning and no end) universe has problems on its own: (1) Entropy increase based on the second law of thermodynamic. This means that we only have complete randomness if universe is eternal. (2) An eternal universe has no beginning. This means that it would take infinite amount of waiting to reach from eternal past to present which this is logically impossible.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:19 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:.. in the same context the bottom of a deep ocean remain perfectly still whilst the surface is subject to waves of movement.
Not heard of deep ocean currents?
What causes the deep ocean currents?

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Dontaskme
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:36 pm

Dontaskme wrote: The concept of God is incoherent...because a concept is a dead thing.
bahman wrote: I didn't say that concepts are alive.
Neither did I


You say God is not a person. And that God created the universe.

So what is this God that is not a person but has created the universe..and where does the notion of God come from in the first place?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Terrapin Station » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:41 pm

"We agree that God created the universe by His Divine act."

Actually, I don't believe any such thing. I'm an atheist. But moving on while putting that aside for a moment:

"We believe that God could decide about the act of creation."

Sure, most people would probably say that God could decide, although I think a lot of theologians and philosophers of religion would say something more like "Creation is an expression of God's nature." They want to discount the idea of God acting per whim.

"This requires decision before act. This is however problematic since we believe that God is in state of timeless(ness) . . ."

Again, I don't buy that God is conventionally seen as timeless. I asked you for some examples in literature of that claim, but I don't know if you provided any.

"This means that we have to give up either the decision or the act of creation."

OR the idea that God is timeless, OR particular notions of what time is, and so on. As is often the case, there are a large number of moves that can be made to salvage something. (Hello Duhem-Quine.)

"This means that the concept of God is incoherent because He is not a person (a person can decide)."

That's a non sequitur in context. For one, nowhere in your argument did you establish that God must be a person if God exists, or that the idea of God is only coherent just in case God is a person.

There's also a problem in that you're assuming that if God didn't make a decision about creation, then God was not capable of deciding. That doesn't follow.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Terrapin Station » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:45 pm

Dontaskme wrote:The concept of God is incoherent...because a concept is a dead thing.
Not that I agree with you that concepts are dead things, but dead things are incoherent?

"Keith can't be dead--the very idea of being dead is incoherent."

Maybe that's how you catalyze a resurrection.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:46 pm

Dontaskme wrote: No concept created the universe.

The universe is...but no thing has created it.
bahman wrote:That doesn't make sense.
The universe is known to exist...this is without doubt or error.

But who knows the universe exists that God created? ...it can't be a person because you've already said God is not a person.

So who knows the universe exists?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Terrapin Station » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:49 pm

Dontaskme wrote:What causes the deep ocean currents?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+causes+deep+ocean+currents

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bahman
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by bahman » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:53 pm

Dontaskme wrote: Neither did I
Cool.
Dontaskme wrote: You say God is not a person. And that God created the universe.
I only said that the concept of God is not coherent since He cannot be a person/being with the ability to decide.
Dontaskme wrote: So what is this God that is not a person but has created the universe..
I just argue that the concept of a being/thing who could create and be a person at the same time is incoherent.
Dontaskme wrote: and where does the notion of God come from in the first place?
Well, that is a long story. Perhaps you can google it.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:55 pm

bahman wrote:
An eternal (no beginning and no end) universe has problems on its own: (1) Entropy increase based on the second law of thermodynamic. This means that we only have complete randomness if universe is eternal. (2) An eternal universe has no beginning. This means that it would take infinite amount of waiting to reach from eternal past to present which this is logically impossible.
Yes, I see your point..okay...What if the universe is just an appearance? .... finite, like here today and gone tomorrow kind of thing?

But then, what is it appearing from and disappearing in...?

Is that the (no beginning and no end) part of the dilemma?

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Dontaskme
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Re: The concept of God is incoherent

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:01 pm

Dontaskme wrote: and where does the notion of God come from in the first place?
bahman wrote: Well, that is a long story. Perhaps you can google it.
You must provide proof that God exists before you can assert it in the first place.

I'm not asserting it you are so you should provide the answer to my question. Where does the notion of God come from?

You said...God created the universe by His Divine act.

How do you know that? ...you answer it since you are asserting it, don''t tell me to look it up somewhere else.

Do you even know how to answer my question?

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