The Futility of Reason

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seeds
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by seeds »

Nick_A wrote:Seeds, I'll be moving to the onlinephilosophy site. Sanctioned intolerance, intimidation, and abuse, isn't acceptable. I've learned too much of the horrors that have happened in the world from this attitude to support anything which openly condones intolerance, intimidation and abuse. I'll be moving to the onlinephilosophyclub. If you'd like to discuss Panentheism and how it can serve to reconcile science and religion, we could do it there. My name will be the same over there.
Nick, obviously I am new here and unaware of the history of this toxic feud you’ve got going on. However, if you would use a little wisdom and simply stop responding to the insults then perhaps it would subside.

I don’t blame you for wanting to leave, but how ‘bout (for the sake of continuity) we finish this particular discussion at this location?

I will continue with it in my next post and if you do not respond I will understand.
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Re: The Futility of Reason

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seeds wrote:

You like the term “cave dwellers,” whereas I prefer the term “womb dwellers.” Clearly, what they both have in common is the idea that a higher context of reality exists “above and outside” of either situation.
Nick_A wrote:
This is our first essential difference. Where the womb nourishes the fetus, Plato’s cave serves to starve the higher parts of our organism of nourishment from higher influences.
Yes, the womb nourishes the fetus; however, its primary purpose is to provide the means for the manifestation of the fetus into existence.

Furthermore, implicit in the fetus metaphor is the promise of an impending birth into a higher level of consciousness that is above and outside of the confines of the womb (above and outside of the “cave”).

So instead of thinking that Plato’s cave represents a situation that is intended to “starve” the higher parts of our organism of nourishment from higher influences, I suggest that it is merely a temporary “withholding” of the truth of our ultimate form and destiny.

It is simply a momentary “hiding” of the higher context of reality that can only be experienced via a second and final birth - out of the “placental-like” encasement of these physical bodies - and into the light of “true reality.”

As Jesus proclaimed: “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” (John 3:7 – KJV)

seeds wrote:

Yes, Panentheism is indeed the most logical framework for uniting science and the essence of religion.

However (as I'm sure you know), “religion,” as handed down to us from ancient minds, will never work in parity with modern science.
Nick_A wrote:
I believe that the essence of religion is a perennial tradition. This means it always was.
Yes, and from a different perspective - that of Hermetic philosophy, there appears to be agreement with that assessment.

According to Wiki in regards to Hermeticism:

“The tradition claims descent from a prisca theologia, a doctrine that affirms the existence of a single, true theology that is present in all religions and that was given by God to man in antiquity.”
Nick_A wrote:
Secular evolution has only served to devolve the essence of religion over time.
Secular evolution, which is underpinned by scientific discovery, has merely called into question (and rightly so) the antiquated interpretations of the perennial tradition.

We are talking about unique and opposing visions of the “essence of religion” (Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.) that evolved independent of each other in the past (generally due to geo isolation), but now find their divergent ideologies butting heads in our modern state of globalization.

Couple that with the fact that most of those “interpretations” are mythological nonsense invented by minds that thought if you travelled too far in one direction you would fall off the edge of the earth, then you can understand the need for the aforementioned “new paradigm” of spiritual understanding.
Nick_A wrote:
I also believe that science will eventually verify the perennial tradition.
(IMO) the only thing that science (methodological naturalism/materialism) will ever be able to do is come to a greater understanding and control of the fabric of reality.

It will take us to the point of revealing (to the astute metaphysician) that the fundamental essence of reality is a “mind-like” substance that is capable of being formed into absolutely anything “imaginable” (hence the Berkeleyan aspect of my personal philosophy in which the universe (God's spirit "body") is the literal mind of God).

In other words, what I am suggesting is that there will never be a scientific verification of the perennial tradition (i.e., the “truth” of the transcendent reality) in some overt and irrefutable, materialistically provable process or discovery.

Not because it is utterly impossible, but because it is forbidden, for it could totally disrupt the “illusion” of objective reality – an illusion of mentally constructed phenomena (suns, planets, bodies, brains, etc.) that have been specifically designed to awaken God’s literal “offspring/progeny" (us) into life.

Remember, I stated earlier that we must function at a limited (attenuated) level of consciousness while on earth in order to make standing on a rotating ball, flying through the ether of God’s mind seem “natural and logical” to us.

In which case, it is this purposely attenuated level of consciousness that lies at the very heart of Plato’s allegory.

(This post is getting pretty long, so I’ll address the rest of your comments in a subsequent post.)
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Harbal
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Re: The Futility of Reason

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SCOOP

An undisclosed source has confirmed that Nick and Seeds have been spotted together enjoying an intimate candle lit supper and discussing what appears to be philosophy. When asked about the relationship, Seeds replied "we are just good friends". We await further developments.
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Re: The Futility of Reason

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Seeds wrote: So instead of thinking that Plato’s cave represents a situation that is intended to “starve” the higher parts of our organism of nourishment from higher influences, I suggest that it is merely a temporary “withholding” of the truth of our ultimate form and destiny.

It is simply a momentary “hiding” of the higher context of reality that can only be experienced via a second and final birth - out of the “placental-like” encasement of these physical bodies - and into the light of “true reality.”

As Jesus proclaimed: “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” (John 3:7 – KJV)
I don’t believe the fallen human condition I call Plato’s cave was intended. It is possible that human conscious evolution may have been delayed for some sort of cosmic purpose but that doesn’t mean that the fallen human condition is natural now or necessary. If it were, Jesus arrival would not have been necessary. As we are now, all it does is deprive the human organism the ability to open to the light of grace and the help it provides for awakening.
Couple that with the fact that most of those “interpretations” are mythological nonsense invented by minds that thought if you travelled too far in one direction you would fall off the edge of the earth, then you can understand the need for the aforementioned “new paradigm” of spiritual understanding.
It seems more sensible that the new paradigm will really come to be through remembering the essence of the perennial tradition. I learned a while ago that the Ways do not teach you anything new but rather allow you to remember what has been forgotten. The older I get the more it seems to be profound common sense.
In other words, what I am suggesting is that there will never be a scientific verification of the perennial tradition (i.e., the “truth” of the transcendent reality) in some overt and irrefutable, materialistically provable process or discovery.
Can we agree that science is the domain of facts and the essence of religion is the domain of values? What happens when science proves the necessity of a conscious source for Man’s existence and without it the human perception of higher values unnecessary for animal life on earth would be impossible? Science then would be validating the necessity and purpose of the conscious essence of religion. Pure Science and the essence of religion would be reconciled
Not because it is utterly impossible, but because it is forbidden, for it could totally disrupt the “illusion” of objective reality – an illusion of mentally constructed phenomena (suns, planets, bodies, brains, etc.) that have been specifically designed to awaken God’s literal “offspring/progeny" (us) into life.
You lost me here. Are you suggesting that galaxies stars, and, moons don’t really exist? Are you suggesting that the vertical structure of our universe is not an objective reality a peson can awaken to?
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Re: The Futility of Reason

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Nick_A wrote:
I don’t believe the fallen human condition I call Plato’s cave was intended. It is possible that human conscious evolution may have been delayed for some sort of cosmic purpose but that doesn’t mean that the fallen human condition is natural now or necessary.
In my opinion, there is no “fallen” human condition.

On the contrary, there has been a continuous and gradual ascension of humanity’s general level of consciousness throughout time – an ascension which began from that profound moment in the past when an evolutionary threshold was crossed that established the emergence of humanity itself.

As a fanciful analogy, think of that moment in the Stanley Kubrick film - “2001: A Space Odyssey” – when the ape-like hominid was divinely inspired via the mysterious monolith (a representation of universal intelligence) to begin the process of inward reflection and the willful grasping and control of the fabric of its own personal mind.

From that moment on, it has been nothing but a steady upward movement into higher levels of discovery, one of which being Plato’s intuitive realization and formalization of the idea that there appears to be a higher context of reality “above and outside” of this reality – of which this reality is but a mere shadow in comparison.

(What an amazing contrast to that first moment when the alpha human "imagined" an animal bone being used as a tool/weapon, as was depicted in the movie.)

The point is that there has never been a “fall” of humanity as if we have been knocked off of some pedestal of prior understanding of the ultimate truth of reality.

There has merely been a realization that there is an opacity incorporated into the ontic structure of the universe that prevents us from fully understanding what lies beyond what you and Plato think of as being “cave walls,” but I, on the other hand, think of as being “womb walls.”

(By the way, I believe that the above mentioned transition of hominid-to-human is allegorically represented in the Eden myth in which God, in his proclamation of “...Let us make man in our image...,” thus initiated the process that established us as his literal progeny that, again, momentarily exist as the “embryos” of his transcendent form.)

(Continued in next post)
Last edited by seeds on Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
seeds
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by seeds »

(Continued from prior post)
Nick_A wrote:
It seems more sensible that the new paradigm will really come to be through remembering the essence of the perennial tradition. I learned a while ago that the Ways do not teach you anything new but rather allow you to remember what has been forgotten.
First off, based on the fact that I believe that absolutely none of us existed prior to our awakening into life on this planet, then logically there is no process of “remembering” anything, just acts of “discovery.”

And secondly, as far as this conversation is concerned, the term “perennial tradition” seems to be nothing more than the title of a “file folder” whose contents are extremely vague and ill-defined.

(IMO), the only thing that the perennial tradition (perennial philosophy) can be referring to is whatever the ultimate truth is that underlies our existence – a truth to which we are all drawn but cannot fully apprehend due to the aforementioned opacity of our “womb-like” situation.
seeds wrote:
...there will never be a scientific verification of the perennial tradition (i.e., the “truth” of the transcendent reality) in some overt and irrefutable, materialistically provable process or discovery.
Nick_A wrote:
Can we agree that science is the domain of facts and the essence of religion is the domain of values?
Yes.

However, science is completely restricted to gathering facts about “material” phenomena and wants nothing to do with anything that it cannot directly test and measure. And that places anything of a transcendent nature completely beyond its self-imposed myopic concerns.

While on the other hand, the essence of religion may indeed be the domain of values; however, its main concern is focused on what lies beyond the cave walls and of the mystery that awaits us upon the moment of death (in other words, the precise area where science literally refuses to tread or comment on).
Nick_A wrote:
What happens when science proves the necessity of a conscious source for Man’s existence...
Science will never prove the necessity of a “conscious” source for Man’s existence.

As I suggested earlier, it will only be able to inadvertently demonstrate that the fabric of reality is “mind-like” in nature and capable of being formed into absolutely anything “imaginable.”

In which case, it will be up to the metaphysicians and philosophers to interpret the implications of what science discovers.
seeds wrote:
...there will never be a scientific verification of the perennial tradition (i.e., the “truth” of the transcendent reality)...

...Not because it is utterly impossible, but because it is forbidden, for it could totally disrupt the “illusion” of objective reality – an illusion of mentally constructed phenomena (suns, planets, bodies, brains, etc.) that have been specifically designed to awaken God’s literal “offspring/progeny" (us) into life.
Nick_A wrote:
You lost me here. Are you suggesting that galaxies stars, and, moons don’t really exist?
When I apply the word “illusion” to the universe, it is merely meant to suggest that the universe is a “dream-like” situation (not a dream, just dream-like) in that almost all humans exist in a somnambulistic state of awareness, completely oblivious of the fact that there exists a higher level of “wakefulness” above and outside of the dream.
Nick_A wrote:
Are you suggesting that the vertical structure of our universe is not an objective reality a person can awaken to?
One of the most important things that a person can awaken to while still existing within the confines of the illusion of the universe is the fact that it is an illusion (as described above).

And as I stated in the series of illustrations that I linked to in an earlier post (assuming you bothered to look):

“...the highest truths that any corporeal being can acquire after reaching the highest level of consciousness within the universe, are the truth of the universe itself being the mind and substance of God,...

(i.e., God’s spirit body – remember, we’re discussing Panentheism here)

...and the truth of their ultimate destiny as a family member of the highest order of life”
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Greta
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Re: The Futility of Reason

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seeds wrote:
Nick_A wrote:
I don’t believe the fallen human condition I call Plato’s cave was intended. It is possible that human conscious evolution may have been delayed for some sort of cosmic purpose but that doesn’t mean that the fallen human condition is natural now or necessary.
In my opinion, there is no “fallen” human condition.

On the contrary, there has been a continuous and gradual ascension of humanity’s general level of consciousness throughout time – an ascension which began from that profound moment in the past when an evolutionary threshold was crossed that established the emergence of humanity itself.

... The point is that there has never been a “fall” of humanity as if we have been knocked off of some pedestal of prior understanding of the ultimate truth of reality.

There has merely been a realization that there is an opacity incorporated into the ontic structure of the universe that prevents us from fully understanding what lies beyond what you and Plato think of as being “cave walls,” but I, on the other hand, think of as being “womb walls.”
Well said. The incredible all-round progress made in a relatively short time is routinely taken for granted but there's not a single other 100-year period in human history that I'd rather live in. Most were horrifyingly savage by today's standards, despite ugliness perpetrated on our behalf by the military, police and others employed to do our dirty work, which of course allows others to wax moral :)) Whatever, I think it still takes a fair bit of sophistry to compare today's moral standards with those of past eras of humanity. Once the world was a shuffling array of invasions, with indigenous people treated like vermin, regularly killed.
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Re: The Futility of Reason

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Greta wrote:
Well said. The incredible all-round progress made in a relatively short time is routinely taken for granted but there's not a single other 100-year period in human history that I'd rather live in. Most were horrifyingly savage by today's standards, despite ugliness perpetrated on our behalf by the military, police and others employed to do our dirty work, which of course allows others to wax moral :))
Thanks Greta,

I’m not so confident that our savage nature isn’t still present and thriving. It has merely become a little more insidious and hidden in the form of “looking the other way” when, as you say, our “dirty work” is performed by hired thugs.

(Perhaps “thugs” may be a bit harsh. How about “brainwashed somnambulants”?)

However, yes, it is amazing to think of what has transpired in the last hundred years, especially in the early part of the twentieth century in the concentrated effort to formalize quantum mechanics.

(I know that you were alluding to our moral progress, but I think it’s all interrelated in terms of helping to elevate our general level of consciousness.)

In just a few short years during that time, humanity managed to gain unprecedented access and control over the informational underpinning of matter which ushered in our modern age of radio, television, cell phones, computers, space travel, satellites, the Internet, etc., etc..

It is precisely that leap in our understanding of the universe that has left our ancient mythologies floundering in its wake.

And that’s why I posited the “frantically flapping butterfly wing” metaphor in a prior post viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19396&start=180#p269755 which calls for the need of a new spiritual paradigm to replace the old one.

Some hardcore materialists may insist that a new spiritual paradigm is unnecessary, but keep in mind one of my favorite quotes from Werner Heisenberg:

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A »

Seeds wrote:
In my opinion, there is no “fallen” human condition.

On the contrary, there has been a continuous and gradual ascension of humanity’s general level of consciousness throughout time – an ascension which began from that profound moment in the past when an evolutionary threshold was crossed that established the emergence of humanity itself.

The point is that there has never been a “fall” of humanity as if we have been knocked off of some pedestal of prior understanding of the ultimate truth of reality.

There has merely been a realization that there is an opacity incorporated into the ontic structure of the universe that prevents us from fully understanding what lies beyond what you and Plato think of as being “cave walls,” but I, on the other hand, think of as being “womb walls.”

“Nothing can have as its destination anything other than its origin. The contrary idea, the idea of progress, is poison. “ Simone Weil

I will have to disagree with you here. Animal life has its origin on earth so it returns to the earth. From dust to dust. Man has an animal part originating on earth and also a higher part originating from above so conscious evolution for Man is the conscious return towards the origin of this higher part.

Conscious or evolved humanity existed long before Man on earth. However it was necessary at the time of the fall of man that human “being” would be necessary on earth. So an atom of conscious humanity had to devolve to become Man on earth. This opacity you refer to I know as imagination. It may have become an acquired part of human being but it is not natural and no longer necessary. The whole idea of awakening refers to becoming free of our slavery to imagination in order for conscious evolution for Man on earth to become possible.
And secondly, as far as this conversation is concerned, the term “perennial tradition” seems to be nothing more than the title of a “file folder” whose contents are extremely vague and ill-defined.
It can seem that way but it is necessary. It took me a while to agree with this but now I see why it must be so. Being governed by imagination in Plato’s case we distort whatever doesn’t support imagination which inflates our ego. Since the Perennial traditions don’t do this, it is obvious why they will be attacked. Preserving their potency requires they must remain hidden. However I will leave a link for anyone sincerely interested in the potential for perennial traditions

http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_T ... uction.htm
"Philosophia Perennis--the phrase was coined by Leibniz; but the thing--the metaphysic that recognizes a divine Reality substantial to the world of things and lives and minds; the psychology that finds in the soul something similar to, or even identical with, divine Reality; the ethic that places man's final end in the knowledge of the immanent and transcendent Ground of all being--the thing is immemorial and universal."

Aldous Huxley. (1944). The Perennial Philosophy
Science will never prove the necessity of a “conscious” source for Man’s existence.
I think it can once it establishes proof of Pythagoras law of octaves and the relationship between the Law of the EXCLUDED Middle science goes by and the Law of the INCLUDED Middle which science is beginning to appreciate.

In short for Man on earth in Plato’s cave and the science it goes by the universe is a dualistic expression. I’ve come to believe that the universe is a triune reality. We try to understand the triune universe through binary reason, Obviously it can’t happen.
One of the most important things that a person can awaken to while still existing within the confines of the illusion of the universe is the fact that it is an illusion (as described above).
I agree. But I see it as the universe being an objective reality we cannot comprehend because we are dominated by imagination which excludes the quality of consciousness necessary to experience the structure of the universe and human being as a triune reality
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Harbal
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Re: The Futility of Reason

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Nick_A wrote:
I think it can once it establishes proof of Pythagoras law of octaves and the relationship between the Law of the EXCLUDED Middle science goes by and the Law of the INCLUDED Middle which science is beginning to appreciate.
I see you are applying the law of excluded punctuation.
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote:
Well said. The incredible all-round progress made in a relatively short time is routinely taken for granted but there's not a single other 100-year period in human history that I'd rather live in. Most were horrifyingly savage by today's standards, despite ugliness perpetrated on our behalf by the military, police and others employed to do our dirty work, which of course allows others to wax moral ) Whatever, I think it still takes a fair bit of sophistry to compare today's moral standards with those of past eras of humanity. Once the world was a shuffling array of invasions, with indigenous people treated like vermin, regularly killed.
I’ve observed that regardless of the time in history, our species has had different levels and qualities of human understanding. You are calling progress what I call conditioning. This conditioning changes as the conditions of external life. Consider how Jacob Needleman describes the human condition in his book “Lost Christianity” P.59
Acornology

I began my lecture that morning from just this point. There is an innate element in human nature, I argued that can grow and develop only through impressions of truth received in the organism like a special nourishing energy. To this innate element I gave a name - perhaps not a very good name - the "higher unconscious." My aim was to draw an extremely sharp distinction between the unconscious that Freud had identified and the unconscious referred to (though not by that name) in the Christian tradition.

Imagine, I said, that you are a scientist and you have before you the object known as the acorn. Let us further imagine that you have never before seen such an object and that you certainly do not know that it can grow into an oak. You carefully observe these acorns day after day and soon you notice that after a while they crack open and die. Pity! How to improve the acorn? So that it will live longer. You make careful, exquisitely precise chemical analyses of the material inside the acorn and, after much effort, you succeed in isolating the substance that controls the condition of the shell. Lo and behold, you are now in the position to produce acorns which will last far longer than the others, acorns whose shells will perhaps never crack. Beautiful!

The question before us, therefore, is whether or not modern psychology is only a version of acornology.
IMO, the inner man or the seed of humanity doesn’t develop because of the attempt to create strong conditioned shells which prevent its development. Actually a good case can be made that our species is devolving through the collective lack of inner growth.
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Greta »

seeds wrote:I’m not so confident that our savage nature isn’t still present and thriving. It has merely become a little more insidious and hidden in the form of “looking the other way” when, as you say, our “dirty work” is performed by hired ... “brainwashed somnambulants”?)
While “brainwashed somnambulants” is also too harsh IMO, the term's biggest problem is lack of specificity, including a huge proportion of society. The category may well include you, me and everyone else on the forum. I'm open to the possibility that every single one of us is wrong in our assumptions about reality due to sensory or brain limitations/filtering. This naturally leads to accusations of mysterianism by other brainwashed somnambulists - but they would say that, wouldn't they? :)

Of course none of this detracts from the value of reason, even if what we know turns out to be purely relative, only of use to mammals. We are mammals, so reason is useful on that level, at least. I do find reason to be largely futile in social situations, which is perhaps why religions have excellent social networks. In my experience, reason is usually not wanted or appreciated in social situations and some seem almost as threatened and offput by four syllable words as they are by abuse. Socially, it seems the most important thing is the capacity for producing and agreeing with obvious bullshit for the sake of reassurance, validation and other emotional buffering.
seeds wrote:It is precisely that leap in our understanding of the universe that has left our ancient mythologies floundering in its wake.

And that’s why I posited the “frantically flapping butterfly wing” metaphor in a prior post viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19396&start=180#p269755 which calls for the need of a new spiritual paradigm to replace the old one.

Some hardcore materialists may insist that a new spiritual paradigm is unnecessary, but keep in mind one of my favorite quotes from Werner Heisenberg:

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”
I see your "two wings" analogy to be merely a reflection of our reality being both objective and subjective. IMO only a fool would ignore our huge body of knowledge, the accumulation of observations by numerous geniuses over history. I have only one, fairly ordinary, head and there's no shame in leaning on the work of great minds. However, as you say, objectivism doesn't "scratch the itch" of our subjective existence.

In the intellectual arena I have a problem with the word "God", also due to lack of specificity. If someone wishes to use a personified entity as their private conduit to the divine, fine, but it makes no sense to make ontic claims based on one's private communions.

In the public domain the word or title "God" can, and is, made to mean anything from a void that accidentally creates stuff to a large male [sic] spirit that deliberately creates stuff. Public advocacy regarding God is a sign of defeat IMO, a retreat to childhood, joyously throwing off the burden of intellectual attempts to understand reality - "we must be as little children", so they say.

That, I guess, is what this thread is about - the choice of mythology over reality. That choice works too. As psychologist Dan Gilbert noted in his viral TED talk, happiness need not be based on real life events. Genuine happiness - physically and mentally, tested in the lab with rigorous controls - can stem purely from attitude, how events are interpreted. It's just commonsense, but commonsense that's been verified by double blind behavioural studies and neuroscience.

Dr Gilbert refers to happiness that comes as the result of objective events "natural happiness". He calls happiness that is the result of interpretation or spin "synthetic happiness". I posit that belief in deities and the associated abandonment of methodical reasoning to be similar - the construction of an efficacious "synthetic reality".

It makes sense. This is a short life and I think we can't be waiting around for science to come up with existential answers. There's an awful lot of reality to interrogate using science's bottom-up approach and that takes time, much more time than any of our lifespans. So that leaves us without an answer. So, without verification, we can validly believe or disbelieve anything we like as long as it either fits the gaps of established knowledge. So the God of the Gaps, although shrinking fast, may well always have a potential existence.

Sorry, that post was longer than intended.
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by seeds »

Nick_A wrote:
Conscious or evolved humanity existed long before Man on earth.
Hi Nick,

If you are going to make such statements, then please describe in clear and logical terms...

(sans any ambiguous suggestions such as existing “above” or existing as “source”)

...in what form and context did conscious or evolved humanity already exist in - prior to its appearance as Man on earth?
Nick_A wrote:
However it was necessary at the time of the fall of man that human “being” would be necessary on earth.
Again, I don’t believe that there was a “fall of man” in any context whatsoever, be it corporeal or incorporeal.

Based on this and previous comments, you seem to be taking an aspect of “old paradigm” mythology (the fall of man in the Eden myth) and then conflating it with Plato's allegory when, in fact, there is absolutely no correlation between the two.
Nick_A wrote:
This opacity you refer to I know as imagination. It may have become an acquired part of human being but it is not natural and no longer necessary. The whole idea of awakening refers to becoming free of our slavery to imagination in order for conscious evolution for Man on earth to become possible.
You and I are diametrically opposed when it comes to our understanding of the purpose of imagination.

From my perspective, imagination, or, in other words, the willful grasping and manipulation of the fabric of our minds, is a (if not “the”) primary feature of our being that will serve us in what I believe is our ultimate purpose throughout eternity (i.e., to achieve what God has achieved, as crazy as that may sound).

Indeed, as we stand on the earth and look out into the universe we are witnessing (from a “fetal” perspective) the extent to which the fabric of mind can be wielded (via “imagination”) by a singular agent of consciousness just like one of us.
seeds wrote:
One of the most important things that a person can awaken to while still existing within the confines of the illusion of the universe is the fact that it is an illusion (as described above).
Nick_A wrote:
I agree. But I see it as the universe being an objective reality we cannot comprehend because we are dominated by imagination which excludes the quality of consciousness necessary to experience the structure of the universe and human being as a triune reality
Please explain what you mean by “triune reality.”

And lastly Nick, I respect the fact that you hold Simone Weil in great esteem, so as I attempt to analyze your actual stance on the afterlife, what do you suppose her status is at this very moment?

In other words, do you think she (her mind, soul, personal “I AM-ness,” etc.) is still alive and literally conscious of that fact?

Or do you think that her personal identity and self-awareness was extinguished upon the moment of physical death?

Be aware of the fact that if you say something ambiguous like she has “returned to source” or some such thing, I will interpret that as being the oblivion of her "personal consciousness" and a form of nihilism.
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A »

Hi, seeds. Remember that this is only a post on a site so all I can do is speak in generalities. You wrote: .
.in what form and context did conscious or evolved humanity already exist in - prior to its appearance as Man on earth?
I believe that the universe isn’t here to serve us but rather we are here to serve the universe. We can neither serve it as an animal which is the norm for man on earth or we can also serve it in addition as a conscious being. Since we are here to serve the universe it is more logical it was here before man on earth.

Are you familiar with Pythagoras Law of Octaves? Well as I understand it the universe is a giant vertical octave. Like the notes on an octave, the universe consists of levels of reality. Each level of reality has a corresponding density of matter and vibratory frequency in relation to the Source.

Consciousness is required at certain points within this octave for it to serve its purpose. One point is at the vertical level of the sun. Plato of course knew it and his dividing line is based on this knowledge. A level below the sun is conscious humanity. Now don’t forget that I know it as a universal level that spans the universe. It is a level of reality that is beyond our comprehension that can take many forms. We are “natural” man. Conscious or evolved humanity is "spiritual man." They are different qualities of being. Natural man cannot understand spiritual man any more than a caterpillar can understand a butterfly. They are related but different qualities of being.

Man on earth doesn’t originate with the Source but rather at the level of the sun for a distinct purpose. That is why man on earth is considered fallen.
You and I are diametrically opposed when it comes to our understanding of the purpose of imagination.

From my perspective, imagination, or, in other words, the willful grasping and manipulation of the fabric of our minds, is a (if not “the”) primary feature of our being that will serve us in what I believe is our ultimate purpose throughout eternity (i.e., to achieve what God has achieved, as crazy as that may sound).

Indeed, as we stand on the earth and look out into the universe we are witnessing (from a “fetal” perspective) the extent to which the fabric of mind can be wielded (via “imagination”) by a singular agent of consciousness just like one of us.
Imagination is another interesting topic but not right for here. Consciousness and imagination are mutually exclusive as I understand it. Loss of self consciousness having become normal for the human condition on earth leaves man on earth under the dominance of imagination. Conscious directed attention or the intuition Einstein referred to isn’t imagination. Conscious directed attention is essential for higher understanding. Directed attention is one thing while the use of attention in imagination is nothing but the circular flow of associations guided by external attractions. Consciousness uses directed attention while free flowing imagination uses us.

A person when young can look at the sky in awe but soon imagination takes place and all sorts of self justifying theories are created destroying the purity of the experience.
Please explain what you mean by “triune reality.”
Again this is brief. We are aware of two forces at work. They are referred to in the East as yin and yang. Yang is the force of affirmation or yes. Yin is the force of denial or no. We see life as the results of these basic oppositions in apparent points of unification. However the triune universe is built on levels of reality created by the unification of yes and no from a higher level of reality. Imagine a horizontal line on a piece of paper. On the left end is written cold and hot is written on the right end. Now imagine a triangle being formed by lines at the ends being drawn upward towards the middle forming a triangle. The apex of the triangle is the level of reality within which hot and cold become ONE. The universe is built on levels of reality created this way producing a triune reality. Ken Wilber did a lot of research on what he called the holographic universe. A hologram is just basically one of these triangles.
And lastly Nick, I respect the fact that you hold Simone Weil in great esteem, so as I attempt to analyze your actual stance on the afterlife, what do you suppose her status is at this very moment?

In other words, do you think she (her mind, soul, personal “I AM-ness,” etc.) is still alive and literally conscious of that fact?

Or do you think that her personal identity and self-awareness was extinguished upon the moment of physical death?
I really don’t know. My guess is that she was born a partially developed soul as opposed to someone like me with a seed of the soul. These types of births apparently happen more often in the East. These people will reincarnate for the purpose of conscious evolution. Here are two accounts of Simone; one after she died and the other before she died. I know enough about Simone Weil to know that anything is possible so I leave this question open to personal contemplation.

Continued
Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A »

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... il/3465512

Simone Weil's life and work has played a big part in your life. Could you perhaps, give us a brief anecdote to end with?
Well, here is an astonishing story. Though it has to do with Simone's after-life, am not making this up. I tell it because it has illustrative value.
A man had a dream... He dreamt that he entered into a building, took an elevator up to the top floor, where he found a door and pushed the buzzer. Upon being invited to enter, he walked across an apartment and reached a room where he saw a large table at which someone was seated, who looked as if she might be a scholar.
"You must know many languages", he told her.
"Where I am, we speak only one language", she answered.
At this point, the man woke up. The language in question he guessed to be that of love.
Some time later, after he discovered the writings of Simone Weil, he made by telephone an appointment with Mrs Selma Weil (Simone's mother), and proceeded to number 3, rue Auguste Comte in Paris. When he came to the building, he recognised it. And he entered the very elevator he used in his dream, reached the same floor, saw the same door, walked through the same apartment and came to the same room, where stood the same table. On the wall, he noticed a photo which was that of the very same person he had seen in his dream. The books of Simone Weil he had read had not been illustrated. Thus he saw there for the first time the features of the person he had met in his sleep.
Since this story was told to me by the man himself, a reverend and furthermore a psychiatrist, and "there are more things in heaven and earth" than our philosophy can think of, I did not doubt his tale. He is dead now, but I hesitate to mention his name. The gist of the matter however is that this story brings home a point which was made by Pascal: "C'est le coeur qui connait Dieu." "It is through the heart that we know God". And, may I add: "And everything else also."
Here is an account of Simone Weil as she was I believe a year from her death.
I had the impression of being in the presence of an absolutely transparent soul which was ready to be reabsorbed into original light. I can still hear Simone Weil’s voice in the deserted streets of Marseilles as she took me back to my hotel in the early hours of the morning; she was speaking of the Gospel; her mouth uttered thoughts as a tree gives its fruit, her words did not express reality, they poured it into me in its naked totality; I felt myself to be transported beyond space and time and literally fed with light.
Gustav Thibon
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