The Futility of Reason

[Nick_A]

Lacewing wrote:

Funny how we (people) keep trying to share other perspectives, when it is usually pointless to do so. Like different tribes... we speak different languages and see different realities... even though we walk the same ground. I don't know what came over me to engage in the futility of reasoning. I guess I was having a moment of weakness and hopefulness.

That is why it is hopeless. But why should the young suffer metaphysical repression because of foolish defense of the futility of reason? It is the modern way. The ideal kid in service to the Great Beast is spiritually dead. So the sooner they can be killed the better. Quite logical.

[Reflex]

We still need reason to mediate, Nick, else it would be impossible to establish order.

[uwot]

But why should the young suffer metaphysical repression because of foolish defense of the futility of reason?

Insisting that only one metaphysical possibility is The Truth is metaphysical repression.

[Dontaskme]

My concern is for the young who are God’s people but are having the spirit killed in them by spirit killers and blind deniers dominant in institutions of child abuse called schools.

''Your real concern should be to remove all dangers but don't interfere with the child; let him go on his way''.

The mind projects it's own beliefs onto the child. Watch how a child gets moved around by life without a functioning mind...how free, innocent, effortless and beautiful that is. Watch how the parent's words condition the child's mind to believe that actions are real and man is the doer. Life is in charge, it is doing us, we don't do it, life is in charge not as real actions but as a singular illusory flow.Education is illusory and it happens to man so that he may understand that life is not happening to him rather it is happening to life's singular flow in a never ending sequence of events.

Often children see clearer than we do so allow your child to raise you. You have never been a Child in society..an Adult in society is just a legalised Child getting up to the same mischief it told it's inner child not to do. Life is only ever monkeying around with itself. Nothing wrong with it any of it, unless you believe you are the one doing it which you are not. You are the done. Life is doing you.

God is the only Child there is, it is already within you, so can never leave you. You were never an Adult, you never left your child, you were only lost for a little while, and in your lack you had no option than to seek for wholeness, because all children depend on their carer. The one who cares is you disguised as a tyrant adult. Your true carer is the one who is always here for you... your inner child...the only child. You are a bastard child, you are the son (christ consciousness) of a barren mother, get over yourself and get back to the pure innocence of the naked garden of pure consciousness.

''If you leave the pool you have dug for yourself and go out into the river of life then life has an astonishing way of taking care of you, because then there is no taking care on your part.''

[Dontaskme]

kids have it rough.

Kids do not have it rough. Your mind has created that idea. The Adult mind is the one having it rough.


Children = Life in front of you and not the GHOSTS IN YOUR MIND.

In the name of love children are shaped according to the beliefs of unhappy parent's minds to discipline them and then they are told to "Be happy" First be happy yourself then your "education" will be more likely to make your child also happy, illusory it may be. It is illusory to think children are your children.

Happiness is the understanding that children are life's children and not man's.

Happiness is trust in Life which raises its children in the way it is meant to be.

Happiness is to understand that man is not the doer, speaker and thinker and that this is also true for CHILDREN.

Happiness is to life Life as it is and not the life which the mind thinks.

Happiness is to live with ALIVE LITTLE BEINGS in Life and not with GHOSTS IN YOUR MIND.

Happiness is to understand that behaviour is nothing but a thought in the parent's mind and not an actuality in life.

[Dontaskme]

My concern is for the young who are God’s people but are having the spirit killed in them by spirit killers and blind deniers dominant in institutions of child abuse called schools. Must they become part of the spiritually dead who will bury their dead or can they receive some kind of help that will allow them to open to grace so as to become themselves? How can they be made aware of the knowledge they are born with that they are in Plato’s cave and surrounded by influences of the World but capable of consciously inwardly turning in the direction of the light entering the cave? Naturally it won’t come from the World but from people who have become God’s people. But where do they find them and how can they avoid the many charlatans and blind believers who imitate them for worldly goals? One thing for sure; kids have it rough.

The wisdom of reason


Children - the door to enlightenment.

Children are an opportunity given by life to understand the human mind. The ego's love always depends on expectations. If an understanding happens to man that true Love has nothing to do with expectations, that becomes the door to enlightenment.

Is it love when man compares his children with other's?

Is it love when man wants his children to be different than what they appear to be?

Is it love when man praises his children for what he thinks they have done expecting them to do the 'right' thing again?

Is it love when man scolds his children for what he thinks they have said expecting them to behave better?

Is it love when man rewards his children for their achievements at school hoping that they will improve further?

Is it love when man punishes his children for their deeds which he thinks are wrong?

True Love is unconditional, as is preached so many times in the name of Oneness but rarely understood.

Children grow the way they are meant to grow, illusory it may be, for in Oneness there could not be a personal doer, speaker or thinker for many reasons. And children show their parents so often that man could never be the doer, if only he were alert and aware to watch and listen carefully. But the ego being convinced beyond doubt to be the doer misses these powerful pointers manifested in daily family life.


ignorance is not always bliss... but the ignorance of lies is

[Dontaskme]

The Power of Illusion.

Can you imagine... how difficult it might be for a man beginning to understand that Life is not a matter of doing but a matter of happening?

If parents for example begin to realise that man is not the doer, speaker and thinker and that all their beliefs about raising children are illusory, they will begin to stop shaping, advising and criticising their children.

Teachers, neighbours, grandparents, husband, wife and the whole illusory society will jump on them with slogans of responsibility and will even attack their beginning understanding by calling it madness and egoistic.

Such is the Power of Illusion.

Man is not intelligent enough to apply a mental projection of the absolute to daily life -
Every mind has it's version of righteous living. And perhaps you feel that nobody should pull himself back from daily life in the name of the absolute. But the question as I see it is not how to live righteously. What is wrong for you is right for somebody else. It needs to be understood that both a right and a wrong way of living is a report of the mind. Even when you know that you are not pulling yourself back from daily life, you're still living your mind and you're not living life.

No matter what we think is happening in life, we come to know it only after it has happened as relative thoughts in illusory time, while life transforms timelessly. How could it be real? Events, actions and situations are opportunities for man to understand that his life happens to him spontaneously, uncontrollably and unpredictably and he does not bring it about.

[Nick_A]

Reflex wrote:

We still need reason to mediate, Nick, else it would be impossible to establish order.

I agree but the question is the goal of this mediation. Is it to open minds and hearts or to close them? I submit that the futility of reason leads to the need to psychologically destroy. You can even see it on this board. The intent is to destroy questions. This is what happens to those who are primarily of the World. Whatever questions its supremacy must be destroyed. History is filled with this attitude. Do you even think it would be possible to discuss how the need for order could be used to open minds and hearts? It cannot happen other than in small groups with those who already have respect for these qualities of questions even though they question the supremacy of the world. The results of the futility of reason will not allow it.

[Nick_A]

uwot wrote:

Insisting that only one metaphysical possibility is The Truth is metaphysical repression.

Of course. But as Prof. Needleman pointed out, metaphysical repression denies the need to question. The secular World supplies answers so sees no need for questions

"The danger is not lest the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but lest, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry." - Simone Weil

It is one thing to doubt there is method to the madness we call everyday life but quite another to lose the need to question and blindly accept the ball and chain while replacing the need to question with the need to destroy the questioner who threatens the supremacy of the Great Beast. How many kids can survive that without becoming spiritually dead?

[Reflex]

Reflex wrote:

We still need reason to mediate, Nick, else it would be impossible to establish order.

I agree but the question is the goal of this mediation. Is it to open minds and hearts or to close them? I submit that the futility of reason leads to the need to psychologically destroy. You can even see it on this board. The intent is to destroy questions. This is what happens to those who are primarily of the World. Whatever questions its supremacy must be destroyed. History is filled with this attitude. Do you even think it would be possible to discuss how the need for order could be used to open minds and hearts? It cannot happen other than in small groups with those who already have respect for these qualities of questions even though they question the supremacy of the world. The results of the futility of reason will not allow it.

Touche. It's ironic that those who complain about the predominance of religion in the world are so immersed in diversions (the Pokemon craze is the latest example), the anti-religion culture and political correctness that they don't see it as a movement that closes minds instead of opening them to possibilities. The moment someone dares to cast doubt on this emptiness and futility, the zombies accuse those who care of imposing their beliefs on them.

[Nick_A]

Reflex wrote:

Touche. It's ironic that those who complain about the predominance of religion in the world are so immersed in diversions (the Pokemon craze is the latest example), the anti-religion culture and political correctness that they don't see it as a movement that closes minds instead of opening them to possibilities. The moment someone dares to cast doubt on this emptiness and futility, the zombies accuse those who care of imposing their beliefs on them.

You understand. This is the idea of the OP. The people of the World are in the majority. They have their questions and diversions and call this proof of intelligence. There is this minority referred to as the people of God. They are surrounded by every form of secular, religious, and spiritual hypocrisy. The world cannot understand them. Is it any wonder that the young ones turn to drugs.

I'm a keyboard player/vocalist. I was playing in a park on sunday at a community event and was told there was a young guitarist here who would really appreciate playing a blues tune with you. He seemed nice and very anxious and appreciative. After we played "Pride and Joy" we were talking. I asked if he has friends he can practice with. He said yes but all his friends are druggies and he feels uncomfortable. Welcome to the blind secular world. Materialism doesn't feed a seed of a soul and the young who still have this seed wanting to mature are surrounded by every form of spirit killing. The effect is obvious.

[Reflex]

People want freedom from responsibility and freedom to to think without a coherent frame of reference -- and even though this is supposed to be a philosophy forum, we see it all the time. In the philosophy of religion forum, we see expressed as "I dunno, but not that." People seem to think that Chaos Theory means order can be derived from real chaos, chaos without any rules to order.

[Nick_A]

Reflex, you do seem to sense that there is something wrong with our thinking. As much as we celebrate critical thinking somehow it gets lost in wars of opinions and many people feel empty. Do you believe people can learn to feel the attraction of opening to higher ideas of a specific kind and sharing perceptions on how we feel them rather than continually getting lost in egoistic superficiality?

Read this excerpt. Do you accept the possibility that “Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas?” If it is, what do these ideas have in common? Thought seems futile now because as you suggest it leads to things like building order on chaos theory. Would you be interested in discussing Plato’s relationship between knowledge and opinion and if the awareness of this relationship could be part of what can feed the mind starved for ideas? Perhaps if we found five or six people without agendas and truly interested in meaningful discussion we could better understand the human condition and the value of thought towards acquiring a conscious human perspective? Do you think such a thread is possible?

From Jacob Needleman’s book: “The American Soul:”

Our world, so we see and hear on all sides, is drowning in materialism, commercialism, consumerism. But the problem is not really there. What we ordinarily speak of as materialism is a result, not a cause. The root of materialism is a poverty of ideas about the inner and outer world. Less and less does our contemporary culture have, or even seek, commerce with great ideas, and it is the lack that is weakening the human spirit. This is the essence of materialism. Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas.

Throughout history ideas of a certain kind have been disseminated into the life of humanity in order to help human beings understand and feel the possibility of the deep inner change that would enable them to serve the purpose for which they were created, namely, to act in the world as conscious individual instruments of God, and the ultimate principle of reality and value. Ideas of this kind are formulated in order to have a specific range of action on the human psych: to touch the heart as well as the intellect; to shock us into questioning our present understanding; to point us to the greatness around us in nature and the universe, and the potential greatness slumbering within ourselves; to open our eyes to the real needs of our neighbor; to confront us with our own profound ignorance and our criminal fears and egoism; to show us that we are not here for ourselves alone, but as necessary particles of divine love.

These are the contours of the ancient wisdom, considered as ideas embodied in religious and philosophical doctrines, works of sacred art,literature and music and, in a very fundamental way, an indication of practical methods by which a man or woman can work, as is said, to become what he or she really is. Without feeling the full range of such ideas, or sensing even a modest, but pure, trace of them, we are bound to turn for meaning.

[Greta]

Reason is a powerful and reliable promoter of health, happiness and depth. The "problems" with reason only occur when clumsily applied. Reason neither fears nor embraces mysteries but finds them interesting and engaging, and that relaxed fascination helps to conquer fear and superstition.

There is nothing wrong with humanity. Our "illnesses" are invented, based on short-term thinking and our evolved (and understandable) negativity bias.

The progress humanity has made in a very short time in evolutionary terms - intellectually, morally and physically - is simply astonishing. The Earth is changing and we are the agents of change, just as the blue-green algae were a billion years ago (they did much killing along the way too). Every now and then the Earth appears to undergo metamorphosis and the change agent can be either geological or biological.

Reason helps humanity survive and thrive, both individually and collectively. Further, reason is an easy conduit to the so-called "spiritual" responses of universal (agape) love and awe. It is easier to love if you can understand, and feeling awe at our wonderfully bizarre universe is a very natural response - and the more we learn and understand about it, the more awe-inspiring it is.

People obviously can also use mythology as a conduit to awe and universal love, but it's just one method and it's naive to criticise others for preferring other means that suit them better individually.

[Reflex]

Reflex, you do seem to sense that there is something wrong with our thinking. As much as we celebrate critical thinking somehow it gets lost in wars of opinions and many people feel empty. Do you believe people can learn to feel the attraction of opening to higher ideas of a specific kind and sharing perceptions on how we feel them rather than continually getting lost in egoistic superficiality?

I think Einstein said it best when he said, "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift" and "We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality."

People can learn "to feel the attraction of opening to higher ideas of a specific kind and sharing perceptions on how we feel them rather than continually getting lost in egoistic superficiality," but only when they see the futility of making the intellect their god, only when they realize that the experience of delight an individual achieves by looking at a beautiful flower is not caused by the flower. For if delight in the flower were caused by the flower, then everyone seeing that flower would experience the same effect. They don't. The flower might be the trigger for a given individual’s experience of delight, but we cannot speak of causality in its truest sense here because this cause does not always achieve the same effect.

Read this excerpt. Do you accept the possibility that “Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas?” If it is, what do these ideas have in common? Thought seems futile now because as you suggest it leads to things like building order on chaos theory. Would you be interested in discussing Plato’s relationship between knowledge and opinion and if the awareness of this relationship could be part of what can feed the mind starved for ideas? Perhaps if we found five or six people without agendas and truly interested in meaningful discussion we could better understand the human condition and the value of thought towards acquiring a conscious human perspective? Do you think such a thread is possible?

I would add one word the excerpt: "The root of materialism is a poverty of meaningful ideas about the inner and outer world." It's not that they don't exist, but people just don't give a damn. They are too vain, too satisfied with themselves to ask for help. The mind's eyes have to be opened, and the only thing that can do that is more time for the trials and difficulties of life to prepare them for the reception of wisdom and higher learning. To quote Einstein again: "Intelligence makes clear to us the interrelationship of means and ends. But mere thinking cannot give us a sense of the ultimate and fundamental ends. To make clear these fundamental ends and valuations and to set them fast in the emotional life of the individual, seems to me precisely the most important function which religion has to form in the social life of man."

I don't think there five or six people in the philosophy of religion forum at any one time who are truly interested in meaningful discussion. You cannot reveal higher ideas to those who do not seek for them; you cannot lead unwilling souls.


Greta: reason is indeed a wonderful servant, but makes a dreadful master. It's not reason that finds delight in a beautiful flower.