The Futility of Reason

[Greta]

I am an observer and I am observed regularly - the observer is also the observed

And the observing. I think there is too much emphasis placed on the "illusion" aspect in some circles. It is, I think, largely in revolt against the strong materialism that has dominated our culture over the past 300 years. I favor balance.

And the materialism carried with it a revolt against the suffering caused by unfounded metaphysical claims that dominated both societies and governance for some thousands of years before then. Quantum mechanics has somewhat alleviated the materialism of Newton's billiard ball universe. I suspect that, eventually, when the Planck scale is better understood that materialism will give way even more to information.

[seeds]

A Course in Consciousness, not to be confused with ACIM, is a PDF book that may be of interest to Seeds, Nick and Dontaskme.

Thanks Reflex, I'll check it out.

[seeds]

I'm probably not long for this forum since I posted another thread deletion request on the forum board. If it isn't deleted I'll be restricted to posting "Yo momma sucks." How long will that last?

Nick,

Are we to understand that you have requested that this entire 13 page thread be deleted?

[Nick_A]

Seeds wrote:

Are we to understand that you have requested that this entire 13 page thread be deleted?

No. the problem thread is called "The Anonymous in Religious Music" on the Aesthetics board. There is not much worse than people making a mockery out of the efforts of those past and present who have tried in their own ways to experience what is deeper than themselves. Music of a certain quality has the ability to awaken parts of ourselves that are normally asleep. The thread must be deleted in respect to philosophy as the love of wsidom as well for those who have suffered so much through their efforts to experience the anonymous.

[sthitapragya]

Seeds wrote:

Are we to understand that you have requested that this entire 13 page thread be deleted?

No. the problem thread is called "The Anonymous in Religious Music" on the Aesthetics board. There is not much worse than people making a mockery out of the efforts of those past and present who have tried in their own ways to experience what is deeper than themselves. Music of a certain quality has the ability to awaken parts of ourselves that are normally asleep. The thread must be deleted in respect to philosophy as the love of wsidom as well for those who have suffered so much through their efforts to experience the anonymous.

Oh please stop whining like a little baby. You got what you deserve.You have created an image for yourself of someone who only starts threads with an agenda. So don't try to be a martyr. You are not one.

Remember what you did in the thread on abortion. The abuse you gave out there to people who had an opinion which did not agree with yours was the most vile and disgusting stuff I have read on any forum. You were literally exhorting those who did not agree with you to eat fetuses. I mean, who thinks of vile stuff like that? If you can dish such stuff out, learn to take it like a man. Grow up and grow a pair.

[Nick_A]

sthit wrote:

Oh please stop whining like a little baby. You got what you deserve.You have created an image for yourself of someone who only starts threads with an agenda. So don't try to be a martyr. You are not one.

You think this thread carries an agenda against atheists. It is basic psychology. The intellectual function has its limits. Is that really so ego deflating? What does this have to do with attacking atheists? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Remember what you did in the thread on abortion. The abuse you gave out there to people who had an opinion which did not agree with yours was the most vile and disgusting stuff I have read on any forum. You were literally exhorting those who did not agree with you to eat fetuses. I mean, who thinks of vile stuff like that? If you can dish such stuff out, learn to take it like a man. Grow up and grow a pair.

Yes I created a contradiction. If a fetus is just an inhuman parasite, a meaningless zef, why shouldn't it be eaten as it is in certain parts of Asia? Pro abortionists justify abortion by describing the fetus in this way. Yet a person feels something which makes the idea of eating a bowl of fetus soup repulsive. So you had to think out of the box. How terrible

You wanted to participate in the destruction of the Anonymous thread since you believed it was anti-atheist. This is naive. These types of meaningless accusations justify wars. That thread has to be deleted if there is any respect for philosophy and human decency.

[sthitapragya]

sthit wrote:

Oh please stop whining like a little baby. You got what you deserve.You have created an image for yourself of someone who only starts threads with an agenda. So don't try to be a martyr. You are not one.

You think this thread carries an agenda against atheists. It is basic psychology. The intellectual function has its limits. Is that really so ego deflating? What does this have to do with attacking atheists? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Remember what you did in the thread on abortion. The abuse you gave out there to people who had an opinion which did not agree with yours was the most vile and disgusting stuff I have read on any forum. You were literally exhorting those who did not agree with you to eat fetuses. I mean, who thinks of vile stuff like that? If you can dish such stuff out, learn to take it like a man. Grow up and grow a pair.

Yes I created a contradiction. If a fetus is just an inhuman parasite, a meaningless zef, why shouldn't it be eaten as it is in certain parts of Asia? Pro abortionists justify abortion by describing the fetus in this way. Yet a person feels something which makes the idea of eating a bowl of fetus soup repulsive. So you had to think out of the box. How terrible

You wanted to participate in the destruction of the Anonymous thread since you believed it was anti-atheist. This is naive. These types of meaningless accusations justify wars. That thread has to be deleted if there is any respect for philosophy and human decency.

Well, you made your bed. Now sleep in it. You refusal to see that you actually project a hatred for opposing view points is something that you will have to deal with in the form of abuse. Hatred begets abuse. I am pretty sure it must be there in the bible somewhere.

You did not create a contradiction. You just clubbed all people who respect a woman's right to make a choice as fetus eaters. There is no connection between the two. Any sane human being can see that. Your interpretation reeks of hatred and discrimination. If you don't see that, you have a problem. Your ignorance instills contempt for you in others. And you will keep getting contempt and abuse in return. That is the reality. So learn to deal with it. Or grow up and understand that people can have differing views which do not lead to genocide and fetus eating.

The thread could be deleted if you understood what philosophy was and had any decency. You don't. So no. the thread should not be deleted.

[Nick_A]

Sthit wrote: Well, you made your bed. Now sleep in it. You refusal to see that you actually project a hatred for opposing view points is something that you will have to deal with in the form of abuse. Hatred begets abuse. I am pretty sure it must be there in the bible somewhere.

Contemplate Sthit’s attitude and shudder. Since I believe we all live in Plato’s cave suffering the results of imagination that holds the psyche in bondage, what is there to hate? Humanity needs compassion, Discussing opposing views doesn’t require hate but only an open mind.

Sthit wrote “hatred begets abuse.” Think of the implications of this mindset and the horrors it has caused in the world. Would the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, or any other genocide be possible to justify without this attitude? This mindset claims that some people deserve abuse and killing because of what they believe the victims of genocide believe. This is ugly and dangerous stuff.

In their minds I deserve abuse because of all my hatred. But this hatred doesn’t exist. How often do you see this same attitude used in the world. Take Black Lives Matter for example. Don’t they say the same? Cops deserve killing and abuse because of their hatred.

If the mods of the forum support this attitude by allowing the thread to stand they are in favor of perceived justified abuse. If they do, the forum is worthless for anything of depth and human value. It will only be good to discuss the ramifications of “Yo momma sucks.”

[Harbal]

If the mods of the forum support this attitude by allowing the thread to stand they are in favor of perceived justified abuse. If they do, the forum is worthless for anything of depth and human value. It will only be good to discuss the ramifications of “Yo momma sucks.”

Maybe the mods think we should be grown up enough to take care of ourselves.

[Nick_A]

Harbal wrote:

Maybe the mods think we should be grown up enough to take care of ourselves.

Then there will be no more philosophy and just the attempt to dominate through intimidation and insults. If that is the route this site is moving towards you will quickly learn you are no match for me in a battle of insults.

[Harbal]

you will quickly learn you are no match for me in a battle of insults.

Message received, Nick, I'll watch my step.

[seeds]

Hi seeds. You wrote:

I suggest that we are in Plato’s cave by design.

First of all, since you are attracted to Panentheism you can’t be all bad. But I have to disagree with you here. First I don’t believe we are born with the completed soul Christendom believes in. Rather we have a seed of a soul with the potential for a soul and the result of conscious evolution.

I suggest that it would be unproductive of us to quibble over the definition of what a soul is.

However, can we at least agree that it has something to do with whatever it is that represents the core aspect of our personal being and self-awareness that (speculatively speaking) survives the death of the physical body?

The cause of the human condition as I understand it is beyond the scope of this thread. A human soul has certain freedoms and obligations we cannot appreciate as cave dwellers.

You like the term “cave dwellers,” whereas I prefer the term “womb dwellers.” Clearly, what they both have in common is the idea that a higher context of reality exists “above and outside” of either situation.

So let’s try to focus on that commonality and on what that higher context could be.

But still, if you agree with me on the Panentheistic understanding that the universe is the body of God, you’ve got a kindred spirit here.

Kindred spirit it is then.

IMO it is the logical skeleton which can eventually unite science and the essence of religion.

Yes, Panentheism is indeed the most logical framework for uniting science and the essence of religion.

However (as I'm sure you know), “religion,” as handed down to us from ancient minds, will never work in parity with modern science.

We need a new “material/spiritual” paradigm to replace the old paradigm that is seriously out of balance in our present era.

I have often portrayed the ascension of modern science (i.e., quantum physics, astrophysics, etc.) in the metaphorical terms of being like a frantically flapping butterfly wing that is in desperate need of the symmetry of its other wing (spirituality) which is still stuck in the chrysalis of archaic beliefs.

Getting back to Panentheism (and to compare notes), what exactly are you visualizing when you perceive the universe as being the “body of God”?

[Nick_A]

Seeds wrote: You like the term “cave dwellers,” whereas I prefer the term “womb dwellers.” Clearly, what they both have in common is the idea that a higher context of reality exists “above and outside” of either situation.

This is our first essential difference. Where the womb nourishes the fetus, Plato’s cave serves to starve the the higher parts of our organism of nourishment from higher influences.

Yes, Panentheism is indeed the most logical framework for uniting science and the essence of religion.

However (as I'm sure you know), “religion,” as handed down to us from ancient minds, will never work in parity with modern science.

I believe that the essence of religion is a perennial tradition. This means it always was. Secular evolution has only served to devolve the essence of religion over time. I also believe that science will eventually verify the perennial tradition. I’ll stick with Simone Weil on this one. We need a new “material/spiritual” paradigm to replace the old paradigm that is seriously out of balance in our present era.” I agree and believe it starts with the attitude that science will eventually find the key to establishing the relationship between science and the essence of religion.

I believe that one identical thought is to be found—expressed very precisely and with only slight differences of modality—in. . .Pythagoras, Plato, and the Greek Stoics. . .in the Upanishads, and the Bhagavad Gita; in the Chinese Taoist writings and. . .Buddhism. . .in the dogmas of the Christian faith and in the writings of the greatest Christian mystics. . .I believe that this thought is the truth, and that it today requires a modern and Western form of expression. That is to say, it should be expressed through the only approximately good thing we can call our own, namely science. This is all the less difficult because it is itself the origin of science. Simone Weil….Simone Pétrement, Simone Weil: A Life, Random House, 1976, p. 488

"To restore to science as a whole, for mathematics as well as psychology and sociology, the sense of its origin and veritable destiny as a bridge leading toward God---not by diminishing, but by increasing precision in demonstration, verification and supposition---that would indeed be a task worth accomplishing." Simone Weil

Getting back to Panentheism (and to compare notes), what exactly are you visualizing when you perceive the universe as being the “body of God”

Well briefly I consider the Source, Plato’s Good. The Absolute, or whatever else it is called is beyond the limitations of time and space. God IS. God is NOW. God is the conscious source of existence. In contrast existence is a process that takes place within NOW. So where the Source is NOW, existence or the body of God is a lawful PROCESS taking place within God and governed by the limitations of time and space.

The body of God is structured on levels of reality within which the complimentry processes of involution and evolution take place.. The materiality of each level mathematically corresponds with a frequency of vibrations. The higher the vibration, the closer to the Source.

These levels correspond to dimensions. The higher the level of reality, the greater the dimensions it exists within. The bottom line is that as I understand it the universe makes sense and this sense reveals man's objective meaning and purpose. If our species survives technology it is quite possible in a hundred years from now people will be amazed at our collective ignorance of the obvious relationship between science and the essence of religion

[sthitapragya]

Sthit wrote: Well, you made your bed. Now sleep in it. You refusal to see that you actually project a hatred for opposing view points is something that you will have to deal with in the form of abuse. Hatred begets abuse. I am pretty sure it must be there in the bible somewhere.

Contemplate Sthit’s attitude and shudder. Since I believe we all live in Plato’s cave suffering the results of imagination that holds the psyche in bondage, what is there to hate? Humanity needs compassion, Discussing opposing views doesn’t require hate but only an open mind.

Sthit wrote “hatred begets abuse.” Think of the implications of this mindset and the horrors it has caused in the world. Would the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, or any other genocide be possible to justify without this attitude? This mindset claims that some people deserve abuse and killing because of what they believe the victims of genocide believe. This is ugly and dangerous stuff.

In their minds I deserve abuse because of all my hatred. But this hatred doesn’t exist. How often do you see this same attitude used in the world. Take Black Lives Matter for example. Don’t they say the same? Cops deserve killing and abuse because of their hatred.

If the mods of the forum support this attitude by allowing the thread to stand they are in favor of perceived justified abuse. If they do, the forum is worthless for anything of depth and human value. It will only be good to discuss the ramifications of “Yo momma sucks.”

You really are a drama queen to aren't you? The interpretation above is exactly the kind of hatred you display that causes you problems. Well, you won't learn and we will continue.

You are an idiot. You get abuse from us because we have utter contempt for you. And because you are literally the worst abuser in this whole forum. But like a true cry baby, you cannot take it, so you act like a martyr. Well, go ahead. I think even the mods are having a good laugh at your expense.

[Nick_A]

Seeds, I'll be moving to the onlinephilosophy site. Sanctioned intolerance, intimidation, and abuse, isn't acceptable. I've learned too much of the horrors that have happened in the world from this attitude to support anything which openly condones intolerance, intimidation and abuse. I'll be moving to the onlinephilosophyclub. If you'd like to discuss Panentheism and how it can serve to reconcile science and religion, we could do it there. My name will be the same over there.