The Futility of Reason

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Harbal
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Harbal » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:24 pm

Nick_A wrote: Consider a tulip plant for example.
I'm picturing it now, Nick. It's a yellow tulip.
In the spring it becomes part of evolution and produces the tulip flower.
So far so good, a tulip flower is exactly what you would expect a tulip plant to produce so every thing's going to plan.
The cycle of a star's life is far longer than a flower on earth.
Unless it's a Sun flower.

seeds
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by seeds » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:16 pm

Greta wrote: Imagination is the tool of human creativity.
seeds wrote: Precisely!

Just walk through the stores of a giant shopping mall, or picture in your mind the almost infinite array of inventions and material manifestations that form the basis of the world's societies, and then realize that practically all of those creations owe their existence to human “imagination.”
Nick_A wrote: It seems that Greta and Seeds are glorifying what has become a human norm built upon imagination

Is this a good thing? Is sacrificing real needs in favor of the results of self justifying imagination producing all the horrors evident in the world really worth celebrating?
Nick, I’m not sure that an interpretation of someone’s words could get much more biased and disingenuous than that.

I don’t think that anyone with the slightest ability to properly discern what Greta and I were referencing in the quotes above would accuse us of glorifying or celebrating the horrors evident in the world.

Furthermore, for some strange reason, you are failing to understand that the quote you supplied by Simone Weil...
Simone Weil wrote: Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real interests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it.
...lines up perfectly with my assertions of the “somnambulistic” state of consciousness that humanity functions at, which, in turn, leads to the problems that you and Simone are alluding to.

In other words, we’re on the same page when it comes to understanding that “living in the cave” can have negative influences on imagination.

_______

Nick_A
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:44 am

Seeds wrote:
Just walk through the stores of a giant shopping mall, or picture in your mind the almost infinite array of inventions and material manifestations that form the basis of the world's societies, and then realize that practically all of those creations owe their existence to human “imagination.”
Nick_A wrote:
It seems that Greta and Seeds are glorifying what has become a human norm built upon imagination

Is this a good thing? Is sacrificing real needs in favor of the results of self justifying imagination producing all the horrors evident in the world really worth celebrating?
Seeds wrote:
Nick, I’m not sure that an interpretation of someone’s words could get much more biased and disingenuous than that.
Imagination inspires the inventions and material manifestations you wrote of. Conscious attention invites us to remember human meaning and purpose and the way out of Plato’s cave. Imagination and consciousness are mutually exclusive. Consciousness invites intuition while imagination invites egoistic satisfaction. Einstein appreciated the difference which is why he supported the great ideas at the core of philosophy and the essence of religion tht deserve pondering more than argument.

This quote is attributed to Einstein. There s some debate about it but no one can doubt the value Einstein placed on intuition
“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift,”

I think this is why the great ideas have lost their value and are openly ridiculed by so many. We have forgotten the importance of what Einstein valued. The great ideas nourish the sacred gift while the rational mind that has become the tool of self justifying egoism seeks to devalue and even destroy them. Yet the essence of these ideas are often within artistic expression and a person can have an intuitive experience of a great truth through artistic expression opening the intuitive mind. Einstein experienced it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/im ... magination
………..For Einstein, insight did not come from logic or mathematics. It came, as it does for artists, from intuition and inspiration. As he told one friend, "When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come close to the conclusion that the gift of imagination has meant more to me than any talent for absorbing absolute knowledge." Elaborating, he added, "All great achievements of science must start from intuitive knowledge. I believe in intuition and inspiration.... At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason." Thus, his famous statement that, for creative work in science, "Imagination is more important than knowledge" (Calaprice, 2000, 22, 287, 10)……….

……………Wow! Anyone looking for connections between music, mathematics, and physics? How about intuition and reason? Einstein shows us how it all connects. But what do our students typically get, especially in high school and college? They get math without music. They get science without images, feelings and intuition. They get knowledge without imagination. Not only does intuition go undeveloped, many math and science teachers do not give credit to answers (even though they may be correct) that are not explicated by detailed logic. What these teachers appear not to understand is that translating intuitive insights into words or mathematical symbols is a secondary process that can - and should be -- be taught just as explicitly as translating from one language and another…………………….

…………So much for Einstein's admission that he often had a feeling he was right without being able to explain it. So much for experiencing space-time through music. So much for working out ideas in images and feelings and musical architectures for which there are no words or symbols. So much for sitting down at the piano and letting the music show the way.
No wonder so many of our students don't like math and science: what is there to imagine and feel? Where is the art in their learning?.

The great ideas inspire a person to ponder what is beyond themselves. This isn't self gratification and imagination into escapism but rather directed attention; conscious contemplation on questions without answers. That is what Einstein defined as imagination. They open the mind. Modern education seeks to close the mind by making the above seem unnecessary and old fashioned. It doesn't understand the limitations and futility of reason for acquiring a human perspective. Modern education is winning. The conditioned mind is becoming dominant over the open mind. It is obvious by the way the great ideas have been devalued in favor pf honoring the servant. It isn't that there is anything wrong with literal reason. The problem begins when we cannot accept its limitations. Then the need to destroy the great ideas that aren't understood takes over. Can humanity survive the loss? I doubt it. For some reason many seem to value those who destroy more than those who preserve the great ideas at the core of philosophy and the essence of religion.

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Greta
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Greta » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:42 am

Nick_A wrote:Greta wrote:
Not at all. Both the womb and its universe are in the growth business. I'm not seeing too much devolution. The universe started as a hot ball of plasma. The Earth started as a huge molten ball of rock. No devoution aside from temporal local fluctuations, but there's been much development.
Existence proceeds in cycles. Some are easier to see than others. Consider a tulip plant for example. In the spring it becomes part of evolution and produces the tulip flower. After a while it begins the process of its involution where it breaks down into its component parts leaving only its essence. Then the cycle repeats. Mountains are created by external forces and then gradually wear away over time and involve back into their essential elements. It is the way creation functions. Cycles are cycles. they differ only in time. The cycle of a star's life is far longer than a flower on earth.
Yes, reality builds and rebuilds in cycles at different fractal scales. Now we are talking reason and it does not seem futile.

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Lacewing
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Lacewing » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:38 pm

Despite the futility of reason :) ... can anyone try to provide explanation as to why there are people on a forum who seem absolutely detached from the reality of the overwhelming negative feedback they receive from others? For example, if people were saying the things to me, that they continually say to some on this forum, I would be GONE! I cannot imagine being lonely or insane enough to subject myself to that. It has to be more than just low self-esteem, doesn't it? Because they are striking out at ALL PEOPLE continually while holding themselves apart from that... and mindlessly spewing venom indiscriminately while claiming to operate from a higher standard. What IS that? It's difficult for me to fathom such a mindset and energy. Is it ignorance or insanity or evil? It seems to have extraordinary powers of self-preservation, detachment, and manipulation of awareness... so that it can deny what it is to itself.

sthitapragya
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by sthitapragya » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:45 am

Lacewing wrote:Despite the futility of reason :) ... can anyone try to provide explanation as to why there are people on a forum who seem absolutely detached from the reality of the overwhelming negative feedback they receive from others? For example, if people were saying the things to me, that they continually say to some on this forum, I would be GONE! I cannot imagine being lonely or insane enough to subject myself to that. It has to be more than just low self-esteem, doesn't it? Because they are striking out at ALL PEOPLE continually while holding themselves apart from that... and mindlessly spewing venom indiscriminately while claiming to operate from a higher standard. What IS that? It's difficult for me to fathom such a mindset and energy. Is it ignorance or insanity or evil? It seems to have extraordinary powers of self-preservation, detachment, and manipulation of awareness... so that it can deny what it is to itself.
To them reason is futile. So they don't reason like you. They probably go by feeling which to them is more important than reason. Also they feel they are unique which is a very strong mechanism for self preservation. The uniqueness is then interpreted to mean better than everyone else and therefore answerable to no one. Then when they encounter reason, a very small doubt kicks in because ultimately you cannot live without rationalizing which in turn sets off the self defense mechanism which causes them to lash out to preserve their uniqueness and drown out the doubt. Classic case of denial.

I don't know if you watch Ramsay's kitchen nightmares. It s a profound serial for those who love to introspect. Every episode shows you the same thing over and over again. How people can be in denial in so many different ways when that denial is so obvious to other people. If we watch enough episodes, it shows us how much we are in denial too and how we are completely blind to it. Worth watching. This one series has taught me so much about myself.

I now go by the credo that if someone criticizes me, I don't straight away accept the criticism to be true. But I definitely ask myself, "why did he say it?" If another person says the same thing to me, then I look to myself because now the same thing has been verified by someone else so I have to assume it is true. Introspection usually reveals to me that they were right and I was in denial of the fact.

seeds
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by seeds » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:03 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
I now go by the credo that if someone criticizes me, I don't straight away accept the criticism to be true. But I definitely ask myself, "why did he say it?" If another person says the same thing to me, then I look to myself because now the same thing has been verified by someone else so I have to assume it is true.
How about if you believe that all humans are created equal and you profess that belief to a Nazi or a member of the KKK who then criticize you?

Do you suddenly look to yourself and doubt your beliefs because he and another member of his Klan verify the error in your thinking?

The obvious point is that it all depends on the mentality of those doing the criticizing and has nothing whatsoever to do with “how many” fools of the same stripe are aligned against you.
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sthitapragya
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by sthitapragya » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:50 am

seeds wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
I now go by the credo that if someone criticizes me, I don't straight away accept the criticism to be true. But I definitely ask myself, "why did he say it?" If another person says the same thing to me, then I look to myself because now the same thing has been verified by someone else so I have to assume it is true.
How about if you believe that all humans are created equal and you profess that belief to a Nazi or a member of the KKK who then criticize you?

Do you suddenly look to yourself and doubt your beliefs because he and another member of his Klan verify the error in your thinking?

The obvious point is that it all depends on the mentality of those doing the criticizing and has nothing whatsoever to do with “how many” fools of the same stripe are aligned against you.
_______
I wasn't talking about my beliefs. I was talking about my personality traits, my strengths and weaknesses.

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