The Futility of Reason

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Nick_A
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The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:39 pm

IN a recent work, Henri Nouwen emphasizes the essence of spirituality in a most succinct fashion: “To whom do we belong? This is the core question of the spiritual life. Do we belong to the world, its worries, its people and its endless chain of urgencies and emergencies, or do we belong to God and God’s people.”
1 Corinthians 2: 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

If this is true it reveals the futility of human reason for answering the question of God other than theoretically. Only the Spirit of wholeness can reveal the truth to the essence of human being. But how to open to the spirit that can reveal the truth beyond what dualistic reason is capable of?

My concern is for the young who are God’s people but are having the spirit killed in them by spirit killers and blind deniers dominant in institutions of child abuse called schools. Must they become part of the spiritually dead who will bury their dead or can they receive some kind of help that will allow them to open to grace so as to become themselves? How can they be made aware of the knowledge they are born with that they are in Plato’s cave and surrounded by influences of the World but capable of consciously inwardly turning in the direction of the light entering the cave? Naturally it won’t come from the World but from people who have become God’s people. But where do they find them and how can they avoid the many charlatans and blind believers who imitate them for worldly goals? One thing for sure; kids have it rough.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:54 pm

.




The Futility of Understanding YOUR Reasoning...






I understand and AGREE with your conclusion, Kids have it rough.


Your reasoning leading up-to that conclusion seems like gobbledygook to me.

Don't know if it didn't come out the way you wished; too many caveats & dog-legs; or my inherent density but your original post upon this thread - just felt uncomfortable.



Cheerio and carry on!



...oh, and adults and seniors kind-of have it rough too...







.

Nick_A
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:28 pm

Bill, I can see you are still under the impression that size matters. But from the perspective of the opening post you seem to belong to the world. There is nothing good or bad about it. I can see how my post wouldn't make sense to you and that is fine. As I said, my concern is for the young who have felt the essence of spirituality which is not of the world and is persecuted by the world. They are in a difficult position that those of the world cannot appreciate.
Henri Nouwen emphasizes the essence of spirituality in a most succinct fashion: “To whom do we belong? This is the core question of the spiritual life. Do we belong to the world, its worries, its people and its endless chain of urgencies and emergencies, or do we belong to God and God’s people.”

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Lacewing
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Lacewing » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:57 pm

Nick_A wrote: My concern is for the young who are God’s people but are having the spirit killed in them by spirit killers and blind deniers dominant in institutions of child abuse called schools.
I get the impression that you are imposing your convoluted beliefs onto fully vibrant souls that do not need your brand of "help". It doesn't matter what age a being is... they are equipped to find their way through all kinds of situations without you shouting out your directions on how it should be done. Who do you think you are... God? What makes you think that your interaction and opinion are so crucial for things to "go right"? Did it ever occur to you that the "bigger picture" is so much larger and more orderly than your ego and identity want to fathom?

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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:11 pm

Lacewing you wrote: "Did it ever occur to you that the "bigger picture" is so much larger and more orderly than your ego and identity want to fathom"

What is this bigger picture that I'm missing and how has your reason enabled you to learn and live it?

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Lacewing
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Lacewing » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:22 pm

Nick_A wrote:What is this bigger picture that I'm missing...
That which is beyond what you think you know.
Nick_A wrote:...and how has your reason enabled you to learn and live it?
Why would reason NOT suggest that there is much beyond what we all know... and that there is an order beyond our involvement/intervention?

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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:38 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Why would reason NOT suggest that there is much beyond what we all know... and that there is an order beyond our involvement/intervention?
The spirit killers and blind deniers do not accept anything beyond human reason. You are suggesting an order beyond human reason and the good it expresses that the children of God sense. You could be shot for less. I quoted Einstein on this:
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.

The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.
The children of God want to open to it while the World prefers to remain closed to it and prefers to remain engrossed in worldly concerns and spiritually kill the young in the process..

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Lacewing
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Lacewing » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:57 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Lacewing wrote:Why would reason NOT suggest that there is much beyond what we all know... and that there is an order beyond our involvement/intervention?
The spirit killers and blind deniers do not accept anything beyond human reason.
Apparently, neither do you... as you keep imposing your beliefs (which are human reasoning) onto everything, without seeming to consider that there is much beyond what you think you know.
Nick_A wrote:I quoted Einstein on this:
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.

The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.
Exactly. You don't seem to recognize this... as you keep trying to "fix" things based on your own limited perspective and arrogance.
Nick_A wrote:The children of God want to open to it while the World prefers to remain closed to it and prefers to remain engrossed in worldly concerns and spiritually kill the young in the process..
What the fuck ever, Nick. You're making all of this up, and drawing dividing lines between people, when clearly there is NO SINGLE GROUP immune from doing all sorts of damage based on their convoluted beliefs... and this includes you. So stop pointing the finger at everyone else and glorifying your position, because your human reasoning is full of faults.

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The Futility of Talking with Lacewing

Post by Reflex » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:18 am

Nick:

If you want to waste your time with Lacewing, that's your business. But I prefer to just walk and shake my head in disgust.


As to your OP, I agree. There is no reason whatsoever to think that we can reason towards God-consciousness or that reason is anything more than a referee when it comes to religious concepts. That issue is up for consideration the philosophy of religion, but I seriously doubt that the anti-theists who post here are genuinely interested in taking such matters because it steals their thunder. But just in case, below are a couple of links I posted in another thread to a couple free pdf books on the subject of the philosophy of religion:

An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion by MICHAEL J. MURRAY and MICHAEL C. REA

and

An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion by BRIAN DAVIES[/quote]
Last edited by Reflex on Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nick_A
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:48 am

Lacewing wrote:
What the fuck ever, Nick. You're making all of this up, and drawing dividing lines between people, when clearly there is NO SINGLE GROUP immune from doing all sorts of damage based on their convoluted beliefs... and this includes you. So stop pointing the finger at everyone else and glorifying your position, because your human reasoning is full of faults.
It isn't a matter of groups but of individuals within groups who have turned in the depth of their being towards the light and have experienced the human condition and the inner direction leading to inner freedom and a human perspective.

There is the Christian concept of metanoia which is really inwardly turning to receive the light. The same idea is basic to Plato’s cave allegory. All the great teachings initiating with a conscious source contain this idea in one form or another. A person cannot realize the human condition and become human until they have this experience of metanoia and the young who have not yet become spiritually corrupted by society easily become open to this awareness. They invite it.

As Carl Jung pointed out alcoholism is really a low form of spiritual need and one reason why the young are so prone to drug addiction. A person who appreciates the spiritual danger the young are in can either continue as part of the problem or become part of the awakening influence that those in search of meaning need. Yes I support those who are capable of realistically furthering awakening to the fallen human condition . It isn’t hip by secular standards but regardless, it is worthwhile.

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Lacewing
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Lacewing » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:36 am

Nick_A wrote:...the young who have not yet become spiritually corrupted by society easily become open to this awareness. They invite it.
I agree with this... but I am put off when your communication and claims so often seem "intoxicated", in regard to "what is" and "what is needed" and who is "at fault"... along with the judgments you have often made against people here. Not only does that seem too obsessive to maintain clarity, but it shows a lack of respect/understanding for a much larger scope/reality/functioning, beyond your own limited understanding.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect those who apparently cannot protect themselves, but the majority of your focus seems glued to claiming what's wrong and who is to blame, while placing yourself on the "right path". If you want to help children... respect them for the capability they already possess, instead of yelling at all of us. They're smarter and more spiritual than many adults at navigating their chaotic environments. In fact, maybe you should be helping the ADULTS! They're the ones who are really messed up. :D

I seem to notice when people are more focused on championing an agenda than on actually connecting with those they're talking with. I don't trust people who do that... because agendas that cannot connect are for egos. And that's a clear sign that you're "in it" for something else than what you claim, and you may not even realize it yourself because of the heavy intoxication with ideas and identity.

sthitapragya
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by sthitapragya » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:34 am

Lacewing wrote:
Nick_A wrote:...the young who have not yet become spiritually corrupted by society easily become open to this awareness. They invite it.
I agree with this... but I am put off when your communication and claims so often seem "intoxicated", in regard to "what is" and "what is needed" and who is "at fault"... along with the judgments you have often made against people here. Not only does that seem too obsessive to maintain clarity, but it shows a lack of respect/understanding for a much larger scope/reality/functioning, beyond your own limited understanding.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect those who apparently cannot protect themselves, but the majority of your focus seems glued to claiming what's wrong and who is to blame, while placing yourself on the "right path". If you want to help children... respect them for the capability they already possess, instead of yelling at all of us. They're smarter and more spiritual than many adults at navigating their chaotic environments. In fact, maybe you should be helping the ADULTS! They're the ones who are really messed up. :D

I seem to notice when people are more focused on championing an agenda than on actually connecting with those they're talking with. I don't trust people who do that... because agendas that cannot connect are for egos. And that's a clear sign that you're "in it" for something else than what you claim, and you may not even realize it yourself because of the heavy intoxication with ideas and identity.
Lace, he will never get that there are only about 11% atheists in the world and that whatever is taught to children is decided by theists. Just leave. He will never get it, and even if he does, he just refuses to acknowledge it. It is a pointless thread. Don't encourage his stupidity which is like an enthusiastic poodle. Give it the slightest attention and it will jump at you.

You are trying to reason with a guy who wants to reason the futility of reason.

Nick_A
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:59 am

Lacewing wrote: I agree with this... but I am put off when your communication and claims so often seem "intoxicated", in regard to "what is" and "what is needed" and who is "at fault"... along with the judgments you have often made against people here. Not only does that seem too obsessive to maintain clarity, but it shows a lack of respect/understanding for a much larger scope/reality/functioning, beyond your own limited understanding.
I have had the direct experience of the negative expression of blind denial on this board. Is it wrong to point it out? There cannot be any communication with those either trapped in emotional blind denial or blind belief. It benefits me because I can try to understand it.This is not condemnation but I admit that I don’t “feel” the attraction of either blind denial or blind belief. Yet the attraction in the world is obvious because people express it so will. But if this is a part of the human condition, why not try to understand the attraction of such intense negativity on a philosophy site?
There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect those who apparently cannot protect themselves, but the majority of your focus seems glued to claiming what's wrong and who is to blame, while placing yourself on the "right path". If you want to help children... respect them for the capability they already possess, instead of yelling at all of us. They're smarter and more spiritual than many adults at navigating their chaotic environments. In fact, maybe you should be helping the ADULTS! They're the ones who are really messed up.
What is wrong is the many influences that produce metaphysical repression. Whenever kids are perverted by either blind belief or blind denial they lose their connection with the higher which both real philosophy and the essence of religion seek to awaken. I’m not yelling at anyone. I’m only emphasizing a problem which leads to metaphysical repression as described by Jacob Needleman in his conversation with Richard Whittaker.
JN: Eros is depicted in Plato's text, The Symposium, as half man, half god, a kind of intermediate force between the gods and mortals. It is a very interesting idea. Eros is what gives birth to philosophy. Modern philosophy often translates the word "wonder" merely as "curiosity," the desire to figure things out, or to intellectually solve problems rather than confronting the depth of these questions, pondering, reflecting, being humbled by them. In this way, philosophy becomes an exercise in meaningless ingenuity.
I did learn to play that game, and then to avoid it.
My students at SF State were very hungry for what most of us, down deeply, really want from philosophy. When we honor those unanswerable questions and open them and deepen them, students are very happy about it, very interested in a deep quiet way.

JN: Some years ago I had a chance to teach a course in philosophy in high school. I got ten or twelve very gifted kids at this wonderful school, San Francisco University High School. In that first class I said, "Now just imagine, as if this was a fairy tale, imagine you are in front of the wisest person in the world, not me, but the wisest person there is and you can only ask one question. What would you ask?" At first they giggled and then they saw that I was very serious. So then they started writing. What came back was astonishing to me. I couldn't understand it at first. About half of the things that came back had little handwriting at the bottom or the sides of the paper in the margin. Questions like, Why do we live? Why do we die? What is the brain for? Questions of the heart. But they were written in the margins as though they were saying, do we really have permission to express these questions? We're not going to be laughed at? It was as though this was something that had been repressed.

RW: Fascinating.

JN: It's what I call metaphysical repression. It's in our culture and It's much worse than sexual repression. It represses eros and I think that maybe that's where art can be of help sometimes. Some art.
Some people are concerned with this question of metaphysical repression and the harm it is doing to the young. I support them regardless if it angers blind deniers.
I seem to notice when people are more focused on championing an agenda than on actually connecting with those they're talking with. I don't trust people who do that... because agendas that cannot connect are for egos. And that's a clear sign that you're "in it" for something else than what you claim, and you may not even realize it yourself because of the heavy intoxication with ideas and identity.
Becoming aware of a problem and desiring to be part of the solution isn’t an agenda. Would you call being on the side of conscious intellectual and emotional freedom an agenda? If so, then I am on the side of an agenda. IMO it is a far better agenda than the agenda that produces metaphysical repression either through emotional blind belief or blind denial

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Lacewing
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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by Lacewing » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:22 am

Nick_A wrote:I have had the direct experience of the negative expression of blind denial on this board. Is it wrong to point it out? There cannot be any communication with those either trapped in emotional blind denial or blind belief.
What seems wrong is your narrow judgment of what people are, even when they are telling you much to the contrary. And there appear to be many people who think that there can be no communication with you because of your trappings. So I suggest that we all be free on our own channels, without imposing our channel on others.
sthitapragya wrote:Lace, he will never get that there are only about 11% atheists in the world and that whatever is taught to children is decided by theists. Just leave. He will never get it, and even if he does, he just refuses to acknowledge it. It is a pointless thread. Don't encourage his stupidity which is like an enthusiastic poodle. Give it the slightest attention and it will jump at you.

You are trying to reason with a guy who wants to reason the futility of reason.
Funny how we (people) keep trying to share other perspectives, when it is usually pointless to do so. Like different tribes... we speak different languages and see different realities... even though we walk the same ground. I don't know what came over me to engage in the futility of reasoning. :D I guess I was having a moment of weakness and hopefulness.

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Re: The Futility of Reason

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:23 am

Nick_A wrote:
IN a recent work, Henri Nouwen emphasizes the essence of spirituality in a most succinct fashion: “To whom do we belong? This is the core question of the spiritual life. Do we belong to the world, its worries, its people and its endless chain of urgencies and emergencies, or do we belong to God and God’s people.”
1 Corinthians 2: 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

If this is true it reveals the futility of human reason for answering the question of God other than theoretically. Only the Spirit of wholeness can reveal the truth to the essence of human being. But how to open to the spirit that can reveal the truth beyond what dualistic reason is capable of?

My concern is for the young who are God’s people but are having the spirit killed in them by spirit killers and blind deniers dominant in institutions of child abuse called schools. Must they become part of the spiritually dead who will bury their dead or can they receive some kind of help that will allow them to open to grace so as to become themselves? How can they be made aware of the knowledge they are born with that they are in Plato’s cave and surrounded by influences of the World but capable of consciously inwardly turning in the direction of the light entering the cave? Naturally it won’t come from the World but from people who have become God’s people. But where do they find them and how can they avoid the many charlatans and blind believers who imitate them for worldly goals? One thing for sure; kids have it rough.
Yo momma sucks.

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