Are all believers in God automatically idol worshipers?

[Immanuel Can]

"...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37)

Exactly my point.

Note that that applies more to issues than people.

"Issues" are not the subject of that passage. "You" is not an issue: it's a person. It's all of us. And if you read the passage aright, you'll see it's you too.

Be well.

[Dubious]

...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

...the perfect dictum for every totalitarian regime. "Word crimes" and their subsequent punishment. It sounds so exalted, so authoritative but is merely another affirmation of knowing your place if you know what's good for you. Those who believe this kind of fundamentalist crap have minds which are still half medieval.

[Greatest I am]

I told you before: I don't care a fig what anyone says about me. Hey, maybe I deserve it.

But since you prefer not to talk about people at all, here's an idea for you.. It's by someone generally recognized as far, far wiser than Eleanor Roosevelt could ever hope to be..

It goes, "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37)

Exactly my point.

Note that that applies more to issues than people.

Regards
DL

People speak and write words, so if you are discussing ideas, you are discussing the thoughts of people.

Indeed, but not the people.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

...the perfect dictum for every totalitarian regime. "Word crimes" and their subsequent punishment. It sounds so exalted, so authoritative but is merely another affirmation of knowing your place if you know what's good for you. Those who believe this kind of fundamentalist crap have minds which are still half medieval.

More than half.

Regards
DL

[seeds]

Are all believers in God automatically idol worshipers?

Basically, yes.

However, instead of “idols,” I suggest that a more apt description is that of “intermediary images.”

In other words, humans create images and models of God that are easy to picture in one's mind, to which they can then focus their attention and prayers on without having to envision God’s true form.

Because when you realize that God’s true form is one that incorporates and encompasses a hundred billion – times – a hundred billion sun systems spread throughout the closed-dimension of his mind (the universe), then you can appreciate the need for something less daunting to visualize...

...(I am, of course, speaking from my own Panentheistic perspective).

Furthermore, expecting humans to be able to truly comprehend what God’s ultimate form actually is, is like expecting a fetus within the womb of its mother to comprehend what her ultimate form actually is.

The obvious circumstances of the fetus, in combination with its extremely limited level of consciousness, prevents it from realizing that it is literally encapsulated within its mother’s very being.

And the only way that the fetus will ever be able to experience its mother’s ultimate form is by being born out of her and into the “higher” context of reality where her true form is displayed.

We are in that exact same situation right now relative to God.

And until we are born out of God via the process of death and can thus see God’s actual form in the transcendent context in which it is displayed, we will continue to direct our prayers toward our subjectively created “models” of what we imagine God to be.

(“...it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” – 1 John 3:2, KJV)

Indeed, this is one area where the Islamic doctrine that prohibits any form of imagery being used to represent God makes absolute sense, for it is literally impossible and can only be perceived as “idolatry.”
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[thedoc]

Indeed, but not the people.

Regards
DL

Ideas separated from the people that said or wrote them, are dead or sterile. If you don't reference the people, you have nothing.

[thedoc]

Indeed, this is one area where the Islamic doctrine that prohibits any form of imagery being used to represent God makes absolute sense, for it is literally impossible and can only be perceived as “idolatry.”
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A symbol is only useful if the viewer of that symbol knows what the symbol represents, if that is lost then the symbol becomes an idol, and useless as a symbol.

[Greatest I am]

Are all believers in God automatically idol worshipers?

Basically, yes.

However, instead of “idols,” I suggest that a more apt description is that of “intermediary images.”

In other words, humans create images and models of God that are easy to picture in one's mind, to which they can then focus their attention and prayers on without having to envision God’s true form.

Because when you realize that God’s true form is one that incorporates and encompasses a hundred billion – times – a hundred billion sun systems spread throughout the closed-dimension of his mind (the universe), then you can appreciate the need for something less daunting to visualize...

...(I am, of course, speaking from my own Panentheistic perspective).

Furthermore, expecting humans to be able to truly comprehend what God’s ultimate form actually is, is like expecting a fetus within the womb of its mother to comprehend what her ultimate form actually is.

The obvious circumstances of the fetus, in combination with its extremely limited level of consciousness, prevents it from realizing that it is literally encapsulated within its mother’s very being.

And the only way that the fetus will ever be able to experience its mother’s ultimate form is by being born out of her and into the “higher” context of reality where her true form is displayed.

We are in that exact same situation right now relative to God.

And until we are born out of God via the process of death and can thus see God’s actual form in the transcendent context in which it is displayed, we will continue to direct our prayers toward our subjectively created “models” of what we imagine God to be.

(“...it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” – 1 John 3:2, KJV)

Indeed, this is one area where the Islamic doctrine that prohibits any form of imagery being used to represent God makes absolute sense, for it is literally impossible and can only be perceived as “idolatry.”
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Well put and I agree with a caveat.

I offer that the fact that Muslims kill those who draw the wrong form in a caricature of Allah or Mohammad get into trouble or death.

That indicates that Muslims do give Allah and Mohammad a form.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Indeed, but not the people.

Regards
DL

Ideas separated from the people that said or wrote them, are dead or sterile. If you don't reference the people, you have nothing.

We do not know who first wrote the Golden Rule yet it is still wisdom.

I wrote, ---- if you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all, ---- the one time forgetting the quotes.

I was complimented on it so wisdom lives on in whatever resonates with people.

Regards
DL

[seeds]

A symbol is only useful if the viewer of that symbol knows what the symbol represents, if that is lost then the symbol becomes an idol, and useless as a symbol.

Yes, that makes sense.

[seeds]

Well put and I agree with a caveat.

I offer that the fact that Muslims kill those who draw the wrong form in a caricature of Allah or Mohammad get into trouble or death.

That indicates that Muslims do give Allah and Mohammad a form.

If nothing else, Muslims do seem to be practicing a quasi form of idolatry in the rituals that are focused on the Kaaba in Mecca – something that they are expected to face towards during prayer no matter where they are in the world.

The argument would be that they are not actually worshiping the Kaaba itself (which I am sure is true).

However, it just goes to my earlier point that due to the utter impossibility of visualizing the real target, humans therefore need some kind of “intermediary” focal point (something, anything) to which they can direct (or channel) their prayers.
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[Greatest I am]

Well put and I agree with a caveat.

I offer that the fact that Muslims kill those who draw the wrong form in a caricature of Allah or Mohammad get into trouble or death.

That indicates that Muslims do give Allah and Mohammad a form.

If nothing else, Muslims do seem to be practicing a quasi form of idolatry in the rituals that are focused on the Kaaba in Mecca – something that they are expected to face towards during prayer no matter where they are in the world.

The argument would be that they are not actually worshiping the Kaaba itself (which I am sure is true).

However, it just goes to my earlier point that due to the utter impossibility of visualizing the real target, humans therefore need some kind of “intermediary” focal point (something, anything) to which they can direct (or channel) their prayers.
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We are not far apart in our thinking.

From the Oxford Concise Dictionary of World Religions (2000 Oxford U. Press) p. 266
"Idolatry (Gk eidolon image + latreia worship.) The attributing of absolute value to that which is not absolute, and acting toward that object, person or concept as though it is worthy of worship or complete commitment. In a religious context this most usually mean treating as God that which is not God, and in particular acting toward a representation of God as if it is God. Thus idolatry is associated with the worship of idols, as though these are the actuality of God. In that sense, idolatry is extremely rare, since most religious worshippers are well aware that the signpost is not be be confused with that which is signified." [Discussion of the attitude to idolatry in Judaism and Islam follows.]

The concept that one creates resides in our minds.

Regardless of the God or intermediary or WORD, the theist must internalize whatever it is and that internalization ends in being what he idol worships. It is his own creation and must be for him to understand what it is he has created a mind picture of.

Here is how Gnostic Christians think of such visions and treasures.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /mary.html

For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Regards
DL

[Dubious]

A symbol is only useful if the viewer of that symbol knows what the symbol represents, if that is lost then the symbol becomes an idol, and useless as a symbol.

Yes, that makes sense.

I thought that's what idols were for being representational and symbolic of deities to whom prayers are addressed. As such, they become symbols or placeholders of those powers we invoke. Hinduism is a prime example of the multitudinous gods prayed to not as idols per se but as placeholders for visual and emotional comfort.

By comparison, Islam has no need for this kind of portrayed obeisance to God since the daily Salah ritual is itself the abstraction through which the deity is served. These abstractions denoted as mandatory rites are much more concrete than a whole Pantheon of Gods which are merely representations of divinity. In contrast, these 'lettered' idols, as expressed in Arabic, are encapsulated in each law of the Koran which allows only the written word as a manifestation of God.

The raison d'être of Islam is the idolatry of the written word presumed sacred causing it to be severely literal, nonconformist and fundamentalist as if it were some ecumenical truth not to be negated without consequences...the implication being that idolatry is equally applicable to the written word as it is to any symbol.

[Greatest I am]

Well put.

Regards
DL

[seeds]

The raison d'être of Islam is the idolatry of the written word presumed sacred causing it to be severely literal, nonconformist and fundamentalist as if it were some ecumenical truth not to be negated without consequences...the implication being that idolatry is equally applicable to the written word as it is to any symbol.

That is an excellent observation, Dubious, and it just goes to show that no matter how much the adherents of Islam rail against any form of idolatry, in truth (if I am reading you properly), they have idolized the very words upon which Islam is founded.

Again, it alludes to my earlier point of humans needing some form of intermediary representation of God’s level of being.

Indeed, if God truly exists, then it is safe to assume that any entity that is capable of creating and controlling a hundred-billion galaxies of suns and planets is so far above us in scope and consciousness that us - trying to fathom its level of existence - is like ants or amoebas trying to fathom our level of existence.
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