Philosophy Now Forum

Dontaskme wrote:Nothing changed.

For my love there is no charge.

There is no change for what is free.

To deny God is to deny you.

Without you there is no God. God is you, and you are God.

That which appears to change is only possible within that which does not change, for how else would you know change without never changing.

When you meet God for the very first time it will literally hit you like a million volt lightening bolt, in that same instant you will vanish into the pure ocean of oneness which is blinding clarity.

I have had that pure ocean of oneness which is blinding clarity. I was so convinced that there is a God that I refused to look at any other alternative. I could literally see the oneness in everything. I KNEW everything was just one. I KNEW that the universe itself was a single organism and I was a part of that oneness.

It went away as I started considering other possibilities. Reading science which I have a very tough time with was a headache but I was determined to prove the atheists wrong. I came up with amazing ideas and concepts which blew my friends minds. But as I read more all the concepts slowly were proved wrong.

One by one it all fell away till finally only Consciousness alone remained.

I even grappled with a theory of a consciousness field pervading the universe like the Higgs Boson field which imparted consciousness of varying levels to different entities depending upon criteria which I could not identity. I was pretty proud of that one and even talked to a scientist friend about it. He was non-committal but I assumed I had not managed to get my point across. And there was the complexity of the universe. Of course there was a designer! how could there not be? And that designer could only be the consciousness which gathered data and used it for evolution. It all made perfect sense. Whatever the biologists said, I knew they were missing something.

I was convinced that Consciousness was the key and since life was the best example of consciousness, biology and physics would have to find a common ground and only then would they be able to come to a Grand Unified Theory.

I was that brilliant.

Then I read Darwin and books on genetics and all my grand theories fell away. I realized life could very possibly spontaneously evolve. Some thinking led me to the conclusion that even consciousness could possibly evolve spontaneously. So my field theory was killed. Very disappointing but there it was.

I realized that over the immense timescale of evolution it was very possible for such complex designs to come up. This one surprisingly took the longest and long discussions with my nephew, whom I was trying to convince of the Intelligent Design, ended with me coming away convinced that there was no intelligent design.

The only thing that still remained was the question, what was BEFORE the big bang. My last hope. Obvious Leo explained that one away. So I was left with nothing. I came away a pure atheist.

SO I have been there. I know how everything is one. I know there is no you and there is only me and you are just an extension of me though your are really not even that. But it all went away.

The cure was reading and the ability to accept I was wrong.

sthitapragya wrote:
The cure was reading and the ability to accept I was wrong.

Thanks for your detailed ideas, which I've read, so tell me, what was you wrong about, was it there is no God or there is?
...sorry I'm not quite sure.

Dontaskme wrote:

sthitapragya wrote:
The cure was reading and the ability to accept I was wrong.

Thanks for your detailed ideas, which I've read, so tell me, what was you wrong about, was it there is no God or there is?
...sorry I'm not quite sure.

Well, it not so much about whether there is a god or not. It is about what can be attributed to him. And there doesn't seem to be anything. Creation? Not him. Consciuosness and life? Not him. If there is a god, and there is always a remote possibility of that, he seems pretty irrelevant as most of the more amazing things just seem to have happened. Again, since we don't really know how life and onsciousness or this universe came into being, there can only be hypotheses of how or why or what but the possibility of God being responsible seem very remote and it seems definitely more likely that there is scientific explanation for them. We just have to learn a lot more to get there.

Also, would you tell the victims of ISIS, the girls who are held as slaves or the people whose whole families including little babies are killed by the ISIS that they and the ISIS are the same? That they are ISIS? What would you say about love and all things being one and being safe to them? What would you say to a father or mother whose child is slowly but surely dying? That we all are one and your son is you so stop crying and feel the love?

We live in bubbles of peace which we do not truly appreciate. The world is not a safe place. And there is definitely no love of the kind you believe there is. These concepts of oneness and all ignore the reality we live in. Meditation is not going to help victims of ISIS. Not is the concept of oneness going to change the ISIS. A burglar high on drugs who robs you, is he you? A man raping a woman so brutally that he destroys her internal organs, is he you? Are these people one with you too?

We create these illusory versions of love and GOd and oneness and ignore reality. Our reality is fantastic. WE can live in the cocoons of our societies and type words of love and oneness in the safety and security of our homes on our computers while munching on a pizza before we go to the moveis. .But does it apply to people whose lives are living nightmares? If it is really God and oneness, everything and everyone should feel it. Those poor people don't.

That is another reason why God becomes irrelevant. Just put Him aside for a minute and truly appreciate what fantastic lives we all have compared to anyone suffering for bad diseases or living in nightmare countries, people whose lives are at risk every day, who lose family members to brutality. There is so much bad happening in this world in reality. And we are not facing it. Appreciate that and literally everything seems better. Perspectives change. Just look at the bigger picture and compare. We are pretty well off and should be thankful for our luck.

sthitapragya wrote:
Also, would you tell the victims of ISIS, the girls who are held as slaves or the people whose whole families including little babies are killed by the ISIS that they and the ISIS are the same? That they are ISIS? What would you say about love and all things being one and being safe to them? What would you say to a father or mother whose child is slowly but surely dying? That we all are one and your son is you so stop crying and feel the love?

We live in bubbles of peace which we do not truly appreciate. The world is not a safe place. And there is definitely no love of the kind you believe there is. These concepts of oneness and all ignore the reality we live in. Meditation is not going to help victims of ISIS. Not is the concept of oneness going to change the ISIS. A burglar high on drugs who robs you, is he you? A man raping a woman so brutally that he destroys her internal organs, is he you? Are these people one with you too?

Well what I believe is that there is just what is happening to no one, and that every choice is a choiceless choice.

It's a happening but not to a thing, this is no thing experiencing itself as every thing.

Events arising are stories this no thing tells itself.

There is only consciousness, and everything happens, arises in consciousness which is not a thing, therefore there is nothing outside of consciousness either.

There is no victim, there is only abundance. ISIS is just an experience of consciousness. I know this doesn't sound pretty but nothing happens unless it is meant to happen. ISIS is happening because consciousness is choosing that experience for what ever reason, else it wouldn't be happening.

Nothing can happen to consciousness because it is not a thing. It is unborn therefore cannot die, the contents of consciousness is the dream.

And the dream is arising as characters in no thing which is awareness. Awareness being infinitely eternal.

One thing we can be absolutely certain of right now is some thing is aware of life that never dies. And we are THAT...But we don't know what that is.


And that's what I believe, and is the peace that passes all understanding.

THE PROBLEM LIES IN THE FACT THAT MOST PEOPLE JUST DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ACTUAL MEANING OF THE WORD LOVE IS

Dontaskme wrote:

sthitapragya wrote:
Also, would you tell the victims of ISIS, the girls who are held as slaves or the people whose whole families including little babies are killed by the ISIS that they and the ISIS are the same? That they are ISIS? What would you say about love and all things being one and being safe to them? What would you say to a father or mother whose child is slowly but surely dying? That we all are one and your son is you so stop crying and feel the love?

We live in bubbles of peace which we do not truly appreciate. The world is not a safe place. And there is definitely no love of the kind you believe there is. These concepts of oneness and all ignore the reality we live in. Meditation is not going to help victims of ISIS. Not is the concept of oneness going to change the ISIS. A burglar high on drugs who robs you, is he you? A man raping a woman so brutally that he destroys her internal organs, is he you? Are these people one with you too?

Well what I believe is that there is just what is happening to no one, and that every choice is a choiceless choice.

It's a happening but not to a thing, this is no thing experiencing itself as every thing.

Events arising are stories this no thing tells itself.

There is only consciousness, and everything happens, arises in consciousness which is not a thing, therefore there is nothing outside of consciousness either.

There is no victim, there is only abundance. ISIS is just an experience of consciousness. I know this doesn't sound pretty but nothing happens unless it is meant to happen. ISIS is happening because consciousness is choosing that experience for what ever reason, else it wouldn't be happening.

Nothing can happen to consciousness because it is not a thing. It is unborn therefore cannot die, the contents of consciousness is the dream.

And the dream is arising as characters in no thing which is awareness. Awareness being infinitely eternal.


And that's what I believe, and is the peace that passes all understanding.

Well, I suppose each to his own. I might accept your belief if you were a refugee from Iraq who had lost her whole family, which had been killed in front of her, been abducted, sold into sexual slavery, been raped by a number of men and then rescued. If then you said that there are no victims, I might believe you. Right now, its exactly what I believed about 30 years ago during my college years when I had a kickass car to ride around in, girls to go out with, parties to attend, the tension of college, the worry of finding enough booze for a party, basically and all the real nightmares of life. Not the fake ones the Iraqis or Syrians are facing. so well, good luck.

sthitapragya wrote: Well, I suppose each to his own. I might accept your belief if you were a refugee from Iraq who had lost her whole family, which had been killed in front of her, been abducted, sold into sexual slavery, been raped by a number of men and then rescued. If then you said that there are no victims, I might believe you. Right now, its exactly what I believed about 30 years ago, so well, good luck.

I have been through the most unimaginable torturous situations in my own life.

These experiences have taught me how to love myself, and to know that nothing can harm me ever.

Don't forget to mention all the goodness in the world while you are contemplating the crap... can't have one without the other,

Dontaskme wrote:

sthitapragya wrote: Well, I suppose each to his own. I might accept your belief if you were a refugee from Iraq who had lost her whole family, which had been killed in front of her, been abducted, sold into sexual slavery, been raped by a number of men and then rescued. If then you said that there are no victims, I might believe you. Right now, its exactly what I believed about 30 years ago, so well, good luck.

I have been through the most unimaginable torturous situations in my own life.

These experiences have taught me how to love myself, and to know that nothing can harm me ever.

Don't forget to mention all the goodness in the world while you are contemplating the crap... can't have one without the other,

I don't need to contemplate the goodness in the world. I experience it. Everyday. And I did mention it. When I said the thing that we really need to do is to accept and appreciate our lives. Mine is fantastic. Has been for 50 years. Now even if it goes to shit, it was worth it. I fervently hope it doesn't though. For another 50.

sthitapragya wrote:
I don't need to contemplate the goodness in the world. I experience it. Everyday. And I did mention it. When I said the thing that we really need to do is to accept and appreciate our lives. Mine is fantastic. Has been for 50 years. Now even if it goes to shit, it was worth it. I fervently hope it doesn't though. For another 50.

The problems in the world are due to the wrong identification with self. When life is taken personally, there is suffering.

Animals are brutally killed by other animals all the time, but they do not suffer because there is no self in an animal.

The self in a human is known as the ego. Ego knows it is an illusion but will fight tooth and nail to protect itself, just like an animal, we're not that different to an animal except to say we know we are going to die....without ever realising that nothing can die because nothing was born. And that all there is ...is just this boundless formless emptiness expressing itself freely forever appearing as every form.

The beauty of having no self is the freedom of knowing although there is a happening it's not happening to you personally.... knowing this is the ultimate freedom for me, knowing that I am just one of an infinite amount of experiences of the one true self.

And that no amount of hate can destroy love just as no amount of darkness can put out the light.

Dark cannot enter light. Light can enter darkness, but darkness cannot enter light.

Sthit wrote: See now that is your second problem You came up with the hypothesis. YOU have to provide supporting evidence that proves it is conclusive. Till then I have no need to accept it since I see a lot of loopholes in your hypothesis.

What you claim to be an intellectual conclusion is not one. You just converted a hypothesis into a conclusion without evidence. How is that intelligent in any way?

How can a hypothesis be denied emotionally? You might have an emotional need to believe in your hypothesis because you are attached to it. I am not. I have nothing to do with your hypothesis. I have no emotional attachment to it. I can simply deny it without any emotion.

Reason for the atheist in matters of God is based on duality: affirmation or denial. There is no reason without either affirmation or denial. There is no way to deny the transcendent God intellectually so when it is done, it is done emotionally. There was once a third option beyond dualistic reason called contemplation which secularism seeks to destroy more each day.

The mysteries of faith are degraded if they are made into an object of affirmation and negation, when in reality they should be an object of contemplation.” ~ Simone Weil

The scientific method is used by science to verify a scientific hypothesis. Contemplation is used to verify a hypothesis for the inner man. But the skill has been largely lost which only furthers the foolish arguments between blind belief and blind denial..

sthitapragya wrote:
I might accept your belief if you were a refugee from Iraq who had lost her whole family, which had been killed in front of her, been abducted, sold into sexual slavery, been raped by a number of men and then rescued. If then you said that there are no victims, I might believe you.

If nothing is separated, who is there to be a victim? events HAPPENING are just an experience. This is no thing experiencing itself. So nothing is actually happening to a separate thing. Are you not inseparable from your experience?

Can you be here and your experience over there?

No thing is a victim.

Is a tree a victim when it is chopped down to make furniture...does the table made from the tree moan about not being a tree any more?

Does a mouse being eaten by a cat feel victimised?

Victimhood is a mentally constructed idea along with the rest of the universe....it's all an illusory mental construction believed to be real.

F E A R

False

Emotion

Appearing

Real


I know this is not very pleasant to hear but it's the truth....no one want's to hear the truth....the truth does not want to be known.

When the truth is fully understood, it is like dying before you die. And no one really want's to die.

Those who die while they are still living are known as the awakened ones, awakened to the illusion of separate self.

These ones do not fear death, they do not fear anything. They live in complete surrender to their fate.

This is not a reckless way of living it is the peace that transcends all misery and chaos in the world.

Self identification is the misery self a prison of your own making.

Non identification with self is total unbound freedom.

Dontaskme wrote:

sthitapragya wrote:
I might accept your belief if you were a refugee from Iraq who had lost her whole family, which had been killed in front of her, been abducted, sold into sexual slavery, been raped by a number of men and then rescued. If then you said that there are no victims, I might believe you.

If nothing is separated, who is there to be a victim? events HAPPENING are just an experience. This is no thing experiencing itself. So nothing is actually happening to a separate thing. Are you not inseparable from your experience?

Well, I would simply say only a true victim can confirm your beliefs. If victims of atrocities tells me that they are not victims, I might give your theory some consideration. Till then, it seems like a very remote and unlikely hypothesis.

sthitapragya wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:

sthitapragya wrote:
I might accept your belief if you were a refugee from Iraq who had lost her whole family, which had been killed in front of her, been abducted, sold into sexual slavery, been raped by a number of men and then rescued. If then you said that there are no victims, I might believe you.

If nothing is separated, who is there to be a victim? events HAPPENING are just an experience. This is no thing experiencing itself. So nothing is actually happening to a separate thing. Are you not inseparable from your experience?

Well, I would simply say only a true victim can confirm your beliefs. If victims of atrocities tells me that they are not victims, I might give your theory some consideration. Till then, it seems like a very remote and unlikely hypothesis.

There really is no victim here.

The mind will swear blind it is a victim, except that no one has ever seen a mind, and that's it's problem. That's the misery self. That self is lost in the dream of separation never stopping to find it's true self which is infinite awareness having the finite experience of being raped or murdered.

No one ever died in the making of this movie. suffering does not exist in the world, that is an idea formed when there is a someone to claim it, find out who or where that someone is and blame that one. No claim? no blame.

There are people that get this and there are people that don't.... and is why Nondual teachings are not very popular. They do not have many followers...for one very good reason, everyone wants to be someone. But there is no one. There is only one.

It is very hard to accept there is only one of here. But it is fact, if you don't believe it, then prove your belief, can you find any thing other than this one already here and show it me.

Dontaskme wrote: There really is no victim here.

The mind will swear blind it is a victim, except that no one has ever seen a mind, and that's it's problem. That's the misery self. That self is lost in the dream of separation never stopping to find it's true self which is infinite awareness having the finite experience of being raped or murdered.

No one ever died in the making of this movie. suffering does not exist in the world, that is an idea formed when there is a someone to claim it, find out who or where that someone is and blame that one. No claim? no blame.

There are people that get this and there are people that don't.... and is why Nondual teachings are not very popular. They do not have many followers...for one very good reason, everyone wants to be someone. But there is no one. There is only one.

Okay, then. Let people who we ignorant fools consider a victim, say that they are not victims. Then I might think of coming into the light from the darkness of my cave. Till then I have to live in the stone age of perceived reality as against your enlightened one of no victims.

sthitapragya wrote:

Dontaskme wrote: There really is no victim here.

The mind will swear blind it is a victim, except that no one has ever seen a mind, and that's it's problem. That's the misery self. That self is lost in the dream of separation never stopping to find it's true self which is infinite awareness having the finite experience of being raped or murdered.

No one ever died in the making of this movie. suffering does not exist in the world, that is an idea formed when there is a someone to claim it, find out who or where that someone is and blame that one. No claim? no blame.

There are people that get this and there are people that don't.... and is why Nondual teachings are not very popular. They do not have many followers...for one very good reason, everyone wants to be someone. But there is no one. There is only one.

Okay, then. Let people who we ignorant fools consider a victim, say that they are not victims. Then I might think of coming into the light from the darkness of my cave. Till then I have to live in the stone age of perceived reality as against your enlightened one of no victims.

No one is enlightened.

Enlightenment means to not exist as a separate entity.

Spirituality is just another false idol.

I can experience the joy of life and nature without reference to false concepts. And I can do that more authentically.

When my heart leaps with joy at seeing my dog find a scent and start wagging her tail furiously looking back up at me to tell me how clever she is whilst the wind is blowing the scent of the sea across my nose and the sun is glinting off those distant waves, scudding clouds reflected in the surface and casting shadows across the green ocean of wheat clear through to the white cliff of the Seven Sisters - What good to me is the concept of "spirituality" that inward looking, mean, satisfied, limiting abstraction?