Who Really is an Atheist?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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sthitapragya
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by sthitapragya » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:22 pm

Nick_A wrote:
God or the Source cannot be within Time and Space since it would equate God with created things subject to the laws of time and space.
If He is beyond it, there is no way for you to know that He exists as you do not have any ability to see beyond time and space. As per your own admission, if He were within time and space He would be subject to laws of time and space so He definitely cannot be within time and space and exists only beyond it. So how do you know of His existence? He cannot interact with you at all now because that would involve Him entering time and space and that would make him subject to the laws of time and space.

.

Walker
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Walker » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:21 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Walker wrote:...

This method of "walking in another's shoes" ...
So have you walked in the atheist''s shoes then?

What did you discover?
Gamesman, in response to your endless river of questions without contribution of any substance, they don’t make them like this anymore. Your intelligent response to this will determine the nature of your existence under these conditions. Take the doorway you must.

Little Big Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJRs2TnP9H8

Dalek Prime
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Dalek Prime » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:45 pm

Either you believe in the bugger upstairs, or you don't. If you don't, it doesn't matter. If you do, you have a few choices. To like him, to dislike him, or to not give him the time of day. Only if you've signed a contract with him, can he hold you to anything. Otherwise, no debts to him are owed.

Nick_A
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:22 pm

D P wrote: Either you believe in the bugger upstairs, or you don't. If you don't, it doesn't matter. If you do, you have a few choices. To like him, to dislike him, or to not give him the time of day. Only if you've signed a contract with him, can he hold you to anything. Otherwise, no debts to him are owed.
This is the problem. Both choices mentioned can only be the result of blind belief or blind denial which are both emotional judgements. I am returning to the OP. Simone Weil wrote:

"In order to obey God, one must receive his commands.
How did it happen that I received them in adolescence, while I was professing atheism?
To believe that the desire for good is always fulfilled--that is faith, and whoever has it is not an atheist."
- Simone Weil, First and last notebooks (last notebook 1942)
(Oxford University Press 1970) p 137

"No human being escapes the necessity of conceiving some good outside himself towards which his thought turns in a movement of desire, supplication, and hope. consequently, the only choice is between worshiping the true God or an idol. Every atheist is an idolater--unless he is worshiping the true God in his impersonal aspect. The majority of the pious are idolaters."
- Simone Weil, First and last notebooks (last notebook 1942)
(Oxford University Press 1970) p 308

Simone Weil has observed: "There are two atheisms of which one is a purification of the notion of God."
- William Robert Miller (ed.), The New Christianity (New York: Delacorte Press 1967) p 267; in Paul Schilling,
God in an age of atheism (Abingdon: Nashville 1969) p 17
Is an atheist open to the potential for a source described by Plato as the “Good” Not for a blind denier. But yes for an atheist. Their objection is to idolatry. Idolatry can be intellectually denied while the “Good” cannot. Einstein, Jacob Needleman, Simone Weil and others all opposed idolatry. Simone and Prof. Needleman admitted to have been atheists. But in truth they were opposed to idolatry as was Einstein

Simone is saying that the intellectual denial of idolatry serves to purify religion of emotional blind denial. The problem is that atheists, at least those on this thread, have become emotional blind deniers and leave themselves only two choices in respect to higher consciousness, the source of consciousness, and objective human meaning and purpose. They become emotional blind deniers as a matter of principle and for self justification.

My objection is that advocates of blind denial have taken over the school systems and infect the young with their negativity. The young need alternatives to psychologically protect themselves from spirit killing. IMO we need more like Prof. Needleman in education who respect the questions of the heart but where can we find them and how can they enter into the field of education when the governing powers are against them?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:44 pm

Walker wrote:Gamesman, in response to your endless river of questions without contribution of any substance, ...
But I've told you clearly how this atheist thinks, whereas you've said nothing about your own position just a lot of snide little digs.
they don’t make them like this anymore. ...
True, whereas the sadu gnu are a ten-a-penny.
Your intelligent response to this will determine the nature of your existence under these conditions. Take the doorway you must.
I asked you a perfectly reasonable question, have you walked in the shoes of the atheist in the way you say they should walk in others?
p.s.
Save the boobtube clips as I rarely bother with them.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

Skip
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Skip » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:05 pm

Both choices mentioned can only be the result of blind belief or blind denial which are both emotional judgements.
Why is that one so obsessed with the concept of blindness?
For all I know, one or more of you may actually be blind. Does that affect your belief or disbelief in a supernatural being? Conversely, does your belief or disbelief affect your eyesight in any way? I don't know. Neither does Nick A.

Ultimately, whoever says he's an atheist very probably is. Non-believers may pretend to believe, for whatever social, political, or - way more likely, financial - reason, so you can't tell whether someone who claims to have faith really does. But nobody would dare deny a god in whom they believe.
That's the only clue you will ever have. How they came to their own private conclusion is none of your business.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by marjoram_blues » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:49 am

Skip wrote:
Both choices mentioned can only be the result of blind belief or blind denial which are both emotional judgements.
Why is that one so obsessed with the concept of blindness?
For all I know, one or more of you may actually be blind. Does that affect your belief or disbelief in a supernatural being? Conversely, does your belief or disbelief affect your eyesight in any way? I don't know. Neither does Nick A.

Ultimately, whoever says he's an atheist very probably is. Non-believers may pretend to believe, for whatever social, political, or - way more likely, financial - reason, so you can't tell whether someone who claims to have faith really does. But nobody would dare deny a god in whom they believe.
That's the only clue you will ever have. How they came to their own private conclusion is none of your business.
Hope Nicky takes a stab at Raymond Tallis and his public conclusion - his happy atheism. Does anyone ever read or search for info in the PN magazine?

Nick_A
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:54 am

Skip wrote: But nobody would dare deny a god in whom they believe.
That's the only clue you will ever have. How they came to their own private conclusion is none of your business.
People deny the god they believe in all the time. It is even in the Bible:
Mark 9:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)

23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,[a] all things are possible to him who believes.”

24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Peter also denied Jesus three times even though he thought it impossible for him to do. It is the human condition.

My personal concern is both for the truth necessary to unite science and religion and also for the personal well being of the young surrounded by spirit killers in schools. I don't desire to convert anyone. I prefer to learn from the intelligent ones who have also felt the calling.

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Lacewing
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Lacewing » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:01 am

Nick_A wrote:My personal concern is both for the truth necessary to unite science and religion and also for the personal well being of the young surrounded by spirit killers in schools.
Just curious... what do you think about children being subjected by adults to Pentecostal (or other extreme) religious environments with psychotic wailing and screaming, speaking in tongues, raging preachers, and demons being "cast out". Who protects children from the spirit killers in religion?

marjoram_blues
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by marjoram_blues » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:13 am

Nick_A wrote:
Skip wrote: But nobody would dare deny a god in whom they believe.
That's the only clue you will ever have. How they came to their own private conclusion is none of your business.
People deny the god they believe in all the time. It is even in the Bible:
Mark 9:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)

23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,[a] all things are possible to him who believes.”

24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Peter also denied Jesus three times even though he thought it impossible for him to do. It is the human condition.

My personal concern is both for the truth necessary to unite science and religion and also for the personal well being of the young surrounded by spirit killers in schools. I don't desire to convert anyone. I prefer to learn from the intelligent ones who have also felt the calling.
What kind of 'truth' would unite science and religion ?
And how does this and your following comments relate to your thread question?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:27 am

Nick_A wrote:...
Mark 9:23-25New King James Version (NKJV) ...
You appear to take the Bible literally, if so can you explain the 'us' in this?
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil".
Who's this 'us'?

sthitapragya
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by sthitapragya » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:02 am

Nick_A wrote:
Is an atheist open to the potential for a source described by Plato as the “Good” Not for a blind denier. But yes for an atheist. Their objection is to idolatry.
What a load of crap! Even if you look up the definition of an atheist it will tell you what an atheist is. We do not believe that God exists. Period. There is no need for a creator. The universe is doing fine on its own.
Idolatry can be intellectually denied while the “Good” cannot.
This makes no sense at all. How about writing something intelligent so it can be "intellectually denied"?

I have told you before. Most atheists were theists. So we know where you are coming from. You however, need to grow into atheism to understand how we think. You are not there yet. So you have no idea what an atheist is. No amount of explaining will get through to you. you are not mentally capable.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:20 am

Nick_A wrote:
D P wrote: Either you believe in the bugger upstairs, or you don't. If you don't, it doesn't matter. If you do, you have a few choices. To like him, to dislike him, or to not give him the time of day. Only if you've signed a contract with him, can he hold you to anything. Otherwise, no debts to him are owed.
This is the problem. Both choices mentioned can only be the result of blind belief or blind denial which are both emotional judgements. I am returning to the OP. Simone Weil wrote:
She is wrong and so are you.
Allowing in belief and knowledge are not the result of faith.
I see offered evidence or arguments about the existence of a thing, and I either reject or accept that on grounds of reason. Emotion has very little to do with it.
I see no REASON to accept "god" however clearly it is defined.
You are trying to tar the atheist with your own stupid brush. There is no symmetry here. We do things differently.

Skepticism is the default position of the reasonable person.

Walker
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by Walker » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:12 pm

Destroyer of worlds, the world is in you, you are not in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb13ynu3Iac

sthitapragya
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Re: Who Really is an Atheist?

Post by sthitapragya » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:41 pm

Walker wrote:Destroyer of worlds, the world is in you, you are not in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb13ynu3Iac
That is why I keep telling you to at least consider that yours is a psychological need for God. Just see what you are doing. You equate the negation of God with the destruction of the world. Obviously you believe that if your belief in God is taken away, for you the world will end. It matters so much to you.

In contrast, tomorrow if I find that God does exist, mentally nothing will change for me. I will definitely have to do some damage control specially if he turns out to be a vengeful God, but my whole world won't turn upside down.

The fact that this discussion turns you into a drama Queen surely needs to be addressed by you. Just think about it.

Unless you actually believe the atheists in this forum are capable of literally destroying the world, in which case you probably need a psychiatrist more than a psychologist.

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