Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:44 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:Salvation from what exactly? I hear this talk of salvation, but fail to see what I'm being saved from. God being the alpha and omega, only he could save, and only from himself. So why ask salvation from your punisher? It makes no sense.
I think Bob is the only one in need of salvation from himself.

PhilX
We all get our salvation from existence in the end.
Bob would love that :lol:

PhilX

sthitapragya
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by sthitapragya » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:41 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:Salvation from what exactly? I hear this talk of salvation, but fail to see what I'm being saved from. God being the alpha and omega, only he could save, and only from himself. So why ask salvation from your punisher? It makes no sense.
I think Bob is the only one in need of salvation from himself.

PhilX
We all get our salvation from existence in the end.
That implies that life is suffering from which you need salvation. If God made the earth, and put you here, don't you think it is kind of insulting to imply that he put you here to suffer? Wouldn't it be your duty to ensure that you loved your time on earth because God put you here?

I realized you were joking and tried to delete the post but I cannot so ignore it.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:59 am

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:We all get our salvation from existence in the end.
That implies that life is suffering from which you need salvation. If God made the earth, and put you here, don't you think it is kind of insulting to imply that he put you here to suffer? Wouldn't it be your duty to ensure that you loved your time on earth because God put you here?

I realized you were joking and tried to delete the post but I cannot so ignore it.
How do you know what God's purpose is? Wouldn't it also be insulting to pretend you're not suffering in whatever form it takes? And why would it be our duty to love our time on earth when God decreed that humankind shall sweat for our food and woman shall labor in pain to produce children, just for disobeying God's commandments?

PhilX

sthitapragya
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by sthitapragya » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:03 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:We all get our salvation from existence in the end.
That implies that life is suffering from which you need salvation. If God made the earth, and put you here, don't you think it is kind of insulting to imply that he put you here to suffer? Wouldn't it be your duty to ensure that you loved your time on earth because God put you here?

I realized you were joking and tried to delete the post but I cannot so ignore it.
How do you know what God's purpose is? Wouldn't it also be insulting to pretend you're not suffering in whatever form it takes? And why would it be our duty to love our time on earth when God decreed that humankind shall sweat for our food and woman shall labor in pain to produce children, just for disobeying God's commandments?

PhilX
True. I confused my god with yours. Mine is pretty cool that way. Though I don't believe in Him. Which is also okay with Him because belief is not a requirement in our case either. Believers and non believers are both welcome.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dalek Prime » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:20 pm

sthitapragya wrote: That implies that life is suffering from which you need salvation. If God made the earth, and put you here, don't you think it is kind of insulting to imply that he put you here to suffer? Wouldn't it be your duty to ensure that you loved your time on earth because God put you here?

I realized you were joking and tried to delete the post but I cannot so ignore it.
He did put us here to suffer. Buddha said life is suffering. The Western bible says the same thing; to work and toil all your days. So I'm just calling god on what he did. If he feels insulted, that's his problem, not mine, and he can stew in it. I owe no duty nor love to a sub-par god. If I do, produce the contract I agreed to.

sthitapragya
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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by sthitapragya » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:45 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
sthitapragya wrote: That implies that life is suffering from which you need salvation. If God made the earth, and put you here, don't you think it is kind of insulting to imply that he put you here to suffer? Wouldn't it be your duty to ensure that you loved your time on earth because God put you here?

I realized you were joking and tried to delete the post but I cannot so ignore it.
He did put us here to suffer. Buddha said life is suffering. The Western bible says the same thing; to work and toil all your days. So I'm just calling god on what he did. If he feels insulted, that's his problem, not mine, and he can stew in it. I owe no duty nor love to a sub-par god. If I do, produce the contract I agreed to.
I think all these guys said life was suffering because they chose to be celibate. Their perspective of life was obviously distorted.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dalek Prime » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:11 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
sthitapragya wrote: That implies that life is suffering from which you need salvation. If God made the earth, and put you here, don't you think it is kind of insulting to imply that he put you here to suffer? Wouldn't it be your duty to ensure that you loved your time on earth because God put you here?

I realized you were joking and tried to delete the post but I cannot so ignore it.
He did put us here to suffer. Buddha said life is suffering. The Western bible says the same thing; to work and toil all your days. So I'm just calling god on what he did. If he feels insulted, that's his problem, not mine, and he can stew in it. I owe no duty nor love to a sub-par god. If I do, produce the contract I agreed to.
I think all these guys said life was suffering because they chose to be celibate. Their perspective of life was obviously distorted.
Not obviously. Only your optimistic opinion. And none of them were celibate. Buha had a son, and Genesis is just that; generation after generation.

Anyways, implication of suffering or no, it's a matter of preference. If you think the party is great, thank the host, by all means. But I'd decline the invite, given the choice, which didn't exist.

(On a more whimsical note, I just noticed that 'sexist' and 'exist' were so similar.)

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by sthitapragya » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:51 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Not obviously. Only your optimistic opinion. And none of them were celibate. Buha had a son, and Genesis is just that; generation after generation.

Anyways, implication of suffering or no, it's a matter of preference. If you think the party is great, thank the host, by all means. But I'd decline the invite, given the choice, which didn't exist.

(On a more whimsical note, I just noticed that 'sexist' and 'exist' were so similar.)
No, I go by the practicality. I am here. Now I have two choices. Either I don't complain and have fun till I die or I complain and suffer till I die. Reality is not going to change whatever I do. So might as well choose the fun option. And I have seen this successfully executed. My sister has pemphigus vulgaris since 30 years and I have yet to meet a happier person. A true zen if I ever saw one. If she can choose to have fun, I sure can. Easily. I don't have 10% of the problems she has.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dalek Prime » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:56 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
Not obviously. Only your optimistic opinion. And none of them were celibate. Buha had a son, and Genesis is just that; generation after generation.

Anyways, implication of suffering or no, it's a matter of preference. If you think the party is great, thank the host, by all means. But I'd decline the invite, given the choice, which didn't exist.

(On a more whimsical note, I just noticed that 'sexist' and 'exist' were so similar.)
No, I go by the practicality. I am here. Now I have two choices. Either I don't complain and have fun till I die or I complain and suffer till I die. Reality is not going to change whatever I do. So might as well choose the fun option. And I have seen this successfully executed. My sister has pemphigus vulgaris since 30 years and I have yet to meet a happier person. A true zen if I ever saw one. If she can choose to have fun, I sure can. Easily. I don't have 10% of the problems she has.
I can complain and still enjoy it whilst I'm here.

And all you are telling me about your sister is that she has adjusted to her suffering, and makes the most of it. Doesn't make her suffering a pleasure, or do you actually think she takes actual joy in her condition?

BTW, why do you say she is a true Zen, after knocking a major founder of it? Zen is Buddhism mixed with Taoism.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by sthitapragya » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:06 pm

Dalek Prime wrote: I can complain and still enjoy it whilst I'm here.

And all you are telling me about your sister is that she has adjusted to her suffering, and makes the most of it. Doesn't make her suffering a pleasure, or do you actually think she takes actual joy in her condition?

BTW, why do you say she is a true Zen, after knocking a major founder of it? Zen is Buddhism mixed with Taoism.
Of course. Enjoy. Don't enjoy. Reality remains what it is.

I meant zen as a metaphor. And you have to meet her to know what I am talking about. Also, I think I made mistake bringing her into this conversation so that she could be dissected.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dalek Prime » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:13 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I can complain and still enjoy it whilst I'm here.

And all you are telling me about your sister is that she has adjusted to her suffering, and makes the most of it. Doesn't make her suffering a pleasure, or do you actually think she takes actual joy in her condition?

BTW, why do you say she is a true Zen, after knocking a major founder of it? Zen is Buddhism mixed with Taoism.
Of course. Enjoy. Don't enjoy. Reality remains what it is.

I meant zen as a metaphor. And you have to meet her to know what I am talking about. Also, I think I made mistake bringing her into this conversation so that she could be dissected.
Your mistake, not mine. No, I don't have to meet her to be correct in my assertions. All of us lower our expectations in order to feel satisfied with life. It's not just your sister. If I lost a leg, I'd accept it because I have no choice but to do so, and learn to appreciate other things more, that I'm able to still do. It doesn't mean I'm finding joy in my loss of the limb.

Anyways, out of respect, I will attempt to desist from discussing her.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by sthitapragya » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:17 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I can complain and still enjoy it whilst I'm here.

And all you are telling me about your sister is that she has adjusted to her suffering, and makes the most of it. Doesn't make her suffering a pleasure, or do you actually think she takes actual joy in her condition?

BTW, why do you say she is a true Zen, after knocking a major founder of it? Zen is Buddhism mixed with Taoism.
Of course. Enjoy. Don't enjoy. Reality remains what it is.

I meant zen as a metaphor. And you have to meet her to know what I am talking about. Also, I think I made mistake bringing her into this conversation so that she could be dissected.
Your mistake, not mine. No, I don't have to meet her to be correct in my assertions. All of us lower our expectations in order to feel satisfied with life. It's not just your sister. If I lost a leg, I'd accept it because I have no choice but to do so, and learn to appreciate other things more, that I'm able to still do. It doesn't mean I'm finding joy in my loss of the limb.

Anyways, out of respect, I will attempt to desist from discussing her.
I sort of agree with you. But instead of saying lowering your expectations, I would say adapting to the new conditions. And no one is expected to find joy at the loss of a limb. But some have the ability to completely ignore the fact that they have lost one. And that I find amazing and worth learning. It's not that they don't know they have lost a limb. Of course they do. But mentally somewhere they just ignore the sentimentality attached to the limb. Very few can do that. But they are the ones I am focused on.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dalek Prime » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:28 pm

Tomato, to-mah-toe. You're just smoothing out the suffering with you pronouncing tomato another way, when it ends up still being the same object. But if you want to believe that, fine. Just don't try to convince me of its truth. Besides that, I'm not interested in minor exceptions, iff they indeed exist.

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Lacewing » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:49 pm

Scope of sight is everything. Many enlightened beings have discovered how to transcend suffering, through a broader way of seeing. When we focus on pain and suffering, it becomes our world. When we lift our gaze to see much more broadly, our experience can be transformed in increasingly unfathomable ways. And the more one learns to expand their gaze, the more efficient and automatic it happens. It's not a matter of ignoring an irritation. It's simply about gazing more broadly than the irritation... and then the irritation is no longer the focus. That can change everything.

Like a little kid who is screaming over some upset... but then notices the ice cream truck. The upset is no longer the focus, and it ceases to have a hold on the little kid. He did NOT deny or ignore, he just noticed that there was much more available, and his world changed. :D

If someone put us here to suffer, that's not only sick... it's idiotic. What a total waste of such a magnificent creation! I tend to think we're here for entertainment... not for someone else's, but our own! However we decide to do it, hopefully we figure out that no one is torturing us... it's just a really convincing set of moments of infinite possibilities. What do we create with that?

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Re: Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Post by Dalek Prime » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:37 pm

He'll just want another cone the next day, and if he doesn't attain his desire, he'll be all sulky again. What a life, feeding desire after desire, if they can be fed. And then desiring something more.... A kiss from the girl next door. But she's not into you. An ice cream laden kiss from the girl next door, but she's lactose intolerant..... Desire is never ending. Sure, you can limit your desires, and say you're satisfied, but it's only a mind game to keep yourself satisfied. When a man is homeless, a roof over his head is a fantastic thing. Then he gets hungry, and realises he needs to eat, and that roof seems less so. So he eats, and now he's bored. So he finds a on old newspaper, and is happy to have something to read, but he doesn't have a light, and his glasses are dirty, but his shirt sleeve is too, so he can't wipe them.... Okay, I'm just having fun here now lol.

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