How To Tell Right From Wrong

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Obvious Leo
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Obvious Leo »

attofishpi wrote:I think from a theist perspective, one must ultimately think upon one's actions here in this life that could affect where one ends up in one's next life.
Many who agree with you are flocking to Syria and Iraq in their droves even as we speak to book themselves a front seat, Fishy.
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attofishpi
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by attofishpi »

Obvious Leo wrote:
attofishpi wrote:I think from a theist perspective, one must ultimately think upon one's actions here in this life that could affect where one ends up in one's next life.
Many who agree with you are flocking to Syria and Iraq in their droves even as we speak to book themselves a front seat, Fishy.
I know, and when i asked the sage\God whether these lads that enjoy chopping heads off are to be turned into the beast, i got the reply - three heavy taps on my right shoulder - 'right.'
Its a nasty entity toward fools.
Obvious Leo
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Obvious Leo »

You should be careful what you wish for mate. You might draw the short straw and finish up sharing your afterlife with a bloke wielding a machete. Eternal life might not be such a bargain after all.
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attofishpi
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by attofishpi »

Obvious Leo wrote:You should be careful what you wish for mate. You might draw the short straw and finish up sharing your afterlife with a bloke wielding a machete. Eternal life might not be such a bargain after all.
Aint wishing for anything mate. Just the nature of God...sorting out who has the right to me a man, and who is to become the energy of man - entropy's a p**** of a thing.
If a doG is a man's best friend, God is truly his worst enemy.
Obvious Leo
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

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Good point. With a friend like god who the hell needs enemies?
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attofishpi
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by attofishpi »

Obvious Leo wrote:Good point. With a friend like god who the hell needs enemies?
Mmm, almost. More like, best not make an enemy of such an entity.
marjoram_blues
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by marjoram_blues »

AS -
First off, I hope you are well.
Just to let you know, I'm continuing our previous natter re 'sin' on uwot's thread. Perhaps all the better to see...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16386
artisticsolution
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by artisticsolution »

marjoram_blues wrote: I don't think it is 'rubbish' that you cope with the words of God in your head. I agree that it is difficult to change an ingrained way of thinking. My concern is that it is made more difficult if we continue to use the words and concepts of any indoctrination that we wish to leave. Like 'sin' and 'heaven' and 'hell'.
Okay..yes...thanks. I am beginning to believe that maybe my communication problem begins with my bad habit/sloppy thinking when it comes to how I use words.

In my mind:

Tissue = Kleenex

Wash Cloth = Warsh Rag

Immorality = Sin

Thingy = any the hell thing I want it to =

But I'm getting better since I have been a member of this forum...I don't say, "I need the thing for the thing" anymore.

:lol:
marjoram_blues
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by marjoram_blues »

AS - I'm done here. Really, it's not about your alleged communication problems. Or using the word 'thingy'... :roll:
artisticsolution
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by artisticsolution »

marjoram_blues wrote:AS - I'm done here. Really, it's not about your alleged communication problems. Or using the word 'thingy'... :roll:
Well then, I have no clue what you are trying to say...perhaps there is someone out there who understands enough to translate?
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Necromancer
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Necromancer »

artisticsolution wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:AS - I'm done here. Really, it's not about your alleged communication problems. Or using the word 'thingy'... :roll:
Well then, I have no clue what you are trying to say...perhaps there is someone out there who understands enough to translate?
No, the English is clear enough or rather "damn" straight!
marjoram_blues
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by marjoram_blues »

artisticsolution wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:AS - I'm done here. Really, it's not about your alleged communication problems. Or using the word 'thingy'... :roll:
Well then, I have no clue what you are trying to say...perhaps there is someone out there who understands enough to translate?
If you haven't been following our discussion, then I don't know that anyone else has - or even cares...
Like I said - I've just gone past the point of caring enough to continue on this thread.
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Lacewing
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: I think from a theist perspective, one must ultimately think upon one's actions here in this life that could affect where one ends up in one's next life.
Yes. It's an integral part of the belief system it seems.

I wonder... without an ultimate purpose, could theists continue being theists? Could there be a god without an ultimate purpose? Would theists know how to tell right from wrong if they discovered there were no ultimate purpose and/or no god?
artisticsolution
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by artisticsolution »

marjoram_blues wrote:
You wrote that you are coming from a Christian perspective because you are aware that atheists don't have the same running commentary in their heads as you have been indoctrinated/trained to think. So, how could they know?
How could THEY know what? By 'they', I am thinking you mean atheists.

By 'KNOW' I am thinking you mean, I am making the statement, " How could atheists KNOW right from wrong."

Is this correct?

If so, then I say, You got me wrong, this is what IC believes, not me.

I believe ...Atheists know right from wrong the way most people know right from wrong. By a natural product/function of being human, not by an imaginary God.

Okay?

Still that is not the issue at hand...

How can I have a discussion in this thread with my thesis, by using that argument which I believe? Because my thesis is not based on my beliefs directly! I HAVE to play devil's advocate, if you will, to even begin to discuss what I wanted to discuss, WHICH IS.... that, from my understanding of the bible, the Christian understanding of their morality, is not in keeping with their book!

I have seen philosophers do it all the time...they argue a side of an argument they do not believe, just because they want to think another way! It's easy to make an argument for what you believe in! Now try to make an argument for the side you don't believe in! That's what I tried to do here....and since I have a background of Christianity, I think I was knowledgeable enough to keep my personal beliefs out of this debate. But they kept trying to pull me back in!
As to 'the quiet contemplation of what God would think...' Fair enough. Except Judgement Day is a lifetime too late. People are held accountable now - in the real world. That is why I asked the questions re your 'personal accountability'. Also, what you meant by 'sin' - not your sin but the concept of 'sin'.


Okay, fair enough...but this is side tracking the issue at hand. To get off topic, I think, if there is no God, what a life wasted is the Christian life! The suspicion and paranoia that the devil's gonna get you! But maybe, if they could see, that if there is a God, he wasn't so much worried about the immorality you see in another, but the immorality you breed in yourself. As the commandments were intended for the individual who is doing the reading and not as a warning of what others will do to entice the christian.
Finally, I disagree with your opinion that your thread topic, related points and personal views can't be discussed within a secular framework.
That is the whole point of philosophy.
Where did I say that personal views can't be discussed within a secular framework? I said they can...but not if we want to stay on topic of this thread.

Look, I think you posted this essay once in here...about a philosophy professor writing a letter to his first year students explaining what philosophy is and what he expects from them...I think it was in an issue of philosophy now long ago. Shit...let me see if I can find it!


https://philosophynow.org/issues/71/Wel ... ophy_Class

This is my first time trying to stay on one tiny little topic....which is I wanted to pretend that the bible IS the axiom for all morality...for the sake of argument. I wanted to develop a philosophical debate to the best of my ability, within the guidelines of my thesis. I did not want my 'feelings' per se, to be a part of the argument, but rather, the scriptures to show what God thinks is moral as opposed to what Christians think is moral. OKay...so I got side tracked on that issue...which I knew would happen with atheists trying to disprove God...and other moral reasoning that has nothing to do with my topic, Christianity and the bible!

Below in bold font is what I was trying to do:

First, philosophy is not an easy subject. In fact, it is rather difficult. This is true even for introductory courses. You will have to apply yourself to a degree matched only in science or mathematics courses. Despite rumors to the contrary, reading and writing about philosophy is not like reading and writing about novels or poems or the movies. Nor is writing philosophy an expression of one’s feelings or ideas about life. Philosophy consists of a series of problems and investigations into those problems. One attempts to solve each problem by making claims which purport to be true, and by backing those claims with arguments.
It doesn't matter if my thesis is true or false...that isn't the debate I wanted to get into...as it's been hashed out to death already! I wanted to make a claim, that IF the word of God is TRUE, Then...blah blah blah....using the scriptures to back up claims.

In other words, I wanted to try my hand at being a philosopher instead of just a person of opinion. I wanted to take the bible...suppose it is true as a starting point (an axiom)...and then decipher the morality in it to correlation of what Christian understanding is. That's all!

Jesus H. Christ...if I am doing this philosophy thing wrong, it's certainly understandable, since I am just now getting the courage to make an philosophical argument as per instruction in this letter titled, "welcome to my philosophy class.

I would appreciate if you tell me I am wrong about my argument points instead of telling me how my 'feelings' are wrong. As I am trying my best to keep the two separate!

Here:
First, philosophy is not an easy subject. In fact, it is rather difficult. This is true even for introductory courses. You will have to apply yourself to a degree matched only in science or mathematics courses. Despite rumors to the contrary, reading and writing about philosophy is not like reading and writing about novels or poems or the movies. Nor is writing philosophy an expression of one’s feelings or ideas about life. Philosophy consists of a series of problems and investigations into those problems. One attempts to solve each problem by making claims which purport to be true, and by backing those claims with arguments.
I am easily distracted...that is why i wanted to stay on topic...so I would not let my feelings get in the way of 'backing my claim with arguments.'

Of course atheist are allowed to speak in here...I would just rather they stay within the boundaries of the topic at hand...for philosophy's sake. and keep feelings out of it.

That's all.
artisticsolution
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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Post by artisticsolution »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Lacewing wrote:So why would it matter at all if a person was an atheist? If someone tries to say that atheists don't have a moral compass, that's just ignorance -- and perhaps an attempt to insist on the necessity of belief in a god, and therefore validating ones own "rightness" for doing so?
Ah, but the question is not "Can Atheists be good?" for the answer to that is, as you say, very obvious: they can certainly choose to be if they wish, just as we all can. And it's certainly not premised on any assumption that Atheists can only be bad people. That would be unreasonable, obviously. Nor is the question, "Do Atheists have any moral compass?" for Christians already assert that they do -- that God has put within every person some knowledge of objective right and wrong...so that doesn't even become a contentious issue for either side.

The real question is "Why do they HAVE to be good?" That is, what moral compulsion does any morality have, given any worldview premised on Atheism.


Thanks for your starting point. It's a helpful place to begin, and it lets us explain the central question properly.
I have been trying to have a philosophical debate with you IC...as we are in a philosophy forum. I was trying to do this (below in quotes)....I hope we can do this together as well as with others who want to attempt to 'do' philosophy , instead of merely citing opinion. If we come from the place that the Bible is the word of God , regarding the scriptures, then maybe we can stay on topic. I want to come from that angle as a axiom, if it is okay with you?

Here is what I want to do, basically:
Philosophy articles and books cannot be read as you read a novel or a newspaper article. You have to study each book or article, re-reading it several times. You must dissect its contents using your own unique intelligence, and then put it back together in a way that gives you personally a clear and distinct understanding of its arguments. The author must be interrogated – forced to admit to the hidden assumptions in his arguments and the flaws of his reasoning. At the same time, you should bend over backwards to give him the benefit of the doubt, to see your objections as potential misunderstandings of what he means. If you find a mistake in the argument, you must do your best to patch it up for the author and make his case as strong as possible – especially if you disagree with the argument. For only if you can imagine how the author would respond to your criticism can you be assured of not misunderstanding him or of not overlooking a point in his favor. So reading a philosophy text is an activity. Make outlines, mark up the page with comments and questions and doubts, read from the middle, from the end – from the beginning, even – and discuss it with your classmates or philosophically-minded friends.
Quoted from this article by Wayne Buck, in philosophy Now:

https://philosophynow.org/issues/71/Wel ... ophy_Class
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