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Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:10 am
by Hobbes' Choice
Necromancer wrote:Challenge accepted.

The "Cardinal" (stuff)

"Relationship to the theological virtues
The "cardinal" virtues are not the same as the three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity / love (see 1 Corinthians 13). Together, they comprise what is known as the seven virtues, also known as the theological virtues." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_virtues
Galations 5:22-23. Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... atians%205.
The Purgatory

It will have to do with "doctrine": purgatory ˈpəːɡət(ə)ri/
noun
1. (in Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.
"all her sins were forgiven and she would not need to go to Purgatory" Source: Google.com by Purgatory meaning

Note: 1 edit. See citation from the Bible.
1) So from what I can gather. The Cardinal Virtues are not Christian in the sense that Jesus did not mentioned them, but GREEK morality.
2) You did not mention the seven deadly sins!!1
3) All you have offered for Purgatory is what I said at the start. It's not in the Bible but a Catholic idea.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:13 am
by Obvious Leo
[quote="Immanuel Can"]he truth is that your understanding of Christian epistemology will allow you leverage only with a very narrow extreme, and has no reference to the majority of Christian epistemological views.[/quote

]I wouldn't mind betting that my knowledge of Christian epistemology surpasses yours by many orders of magnitude, you false prophet. I got it first-hand from the men in frocks and at a level of sophistication which you'll never have encountered from your intellectually paralysed suite of apologists.

Where the fuck is this proof of god's existence that you've been consistently banging on about, you charlatan? Bring it out and let's have a look at it.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:17 am
by Immanuel Can
Necromancer wrote:The Utilitarian grounding speaks of best action from rules, possibly, to maximise happiness without invoking any particular resistance to it like you do.
Rule Utilitarianism, you mean? Not Act Utilitarianism? Would there be a reason to reject one or the other, other than that they frequently conflict with each other?

Well, both of them "work" only as long as no one questions them, especially questioning their teleology -- hardly great qualifications for any ethical system, I think you'd admit.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:20 am
by Immanuel Can
[quote="Obvious Leo"]I wouldn't mind betting that my knowledge of Christian epistemology surpasses yours by many orders of magnitude,[quote]
I'll take that bet. :lol: Okay, chum...what are your credentials. Let's see 'em. :D

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:22 am
by Obvious Leo
Immanuel Can wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:I wouldn't mind betting that my knowledge of Christian epistemology surpasses yours by many orders of magnitude,
I'll take that bet. :lol: Okay, chum...what are your credentials. Let's see 'em. :D
No. I'm not getting into a pissing contest with a fraud. Bring out your proof and I'll wipe the floor with your argument.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:34 am
by Immanuel Can
Obvious Leo wrote:No. I'm not getting into a pissing contest with a fraud. Bring out your proof and I'll wipe the floor with your argument.
Hmmm. Those aren't great credentials. I don't think you won your bet. :D

I'm not optimistic about your success on that second boast either, but AS is right...this isn't the strand for it, ether way. This is the "How to Tell Right From Wrong" strand.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:47 am
by Obvious Leo
I'll take that as No then , shall I?

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:13 am
by Immanuel Can
Obvious Leo wrote:I'll take that as No then , shall I?
Of course. Rather like your boasted knowledge of Christianity. :D

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:32 am
by Obvious Leo
It was in this thread that you repeatedly claimed that the existence of god could be established by logical argument and empirical proof so your vacillation is both fraudulent and disingenuous. Whatever pretense at credibility you may have sought to claim is being destroyed at your own hand because I'll remind you that it is you and not I who has been making all the unsubstantiated claims in this very thread. However if you wish to insist on proper procedure you may instead validate your claim that there is such a thing as an objective morality and then you may go on to explain how the nature of such a morality might be arrived at.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:47 am
by Immanuel Can
Obvious Leo wrote:However if you wish to insist on proper procedure you may instead validate your claim that there is such a thing as an objective morality and then you may go on to explain how the nature of such a morality might be arrived at.
I will be delighted to do so. But first, I am still waiting for an Atheist to give me anything plausible that legitimizes morality for him/her. This is now my fourth time of asking.

And when I get that, I will, as always, respond in kind. Fair play is fair play.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:54 am
by Obvious Leo
Answering a question with a question is a common tactic in apologetics but in a philosophy discussion it is both obfuscatory and insulting.

Shall I take your response as another NO?

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:54 am
by thedoc
Obvious Leo wrote: I wouldn't mind betting that my knowledge of Christian epistemology surpasses yours by many orders of magnitude, you false prophet. I got it first-hand from the men in frocks and at a level of sophistication which you'll never have encountered from your intellectually paralysed suite of apologists.
Excellent, you brag that your credentials are so much better than IC's, but when challenged you woose out and demand that IC show his first. Good tactic, that way whatever IC claims, you can claim something that is, in your mind, better. "The men in Frocks", I assume that you believe they are the end all and be all of Christian education, but just who are you referring to? Some small town parish priest who's more interested in the little boys confessing than anyone else? Did you spend most of your time looking up at them?

Would getting your education this way, be right or wrong?

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:15 am
by Obvious Leo
thedoc wrote: "The men in Frocks", I assume that you believe they are the end all and be all of Christian education, but just who are you referring to?
I received full-time live-in tuition from the Jesuits from the age of 7 until the age of 18.

"Give us your boy by the age of 7 and we've got him for life"....Ignatius of Loyola. Founder of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits).

I was one of their very few failures as far the religious indoctrination went but I have no complaint whatsoever about the secular education I received as well. It was far superior to anything else on offer in either the public or private systems and I'll be grateful to the Society forever for the opportunities it opened up for me in life. I was never once inappropriately touched or in any way sexually molested although I was aware of such things occurring within other orders.

The answer is YES. These blokes are the experts when it comes to matters of Christian theology and the huge range of different interpretations which can be applied to it. They are also the epitome of religious tolerance when it comes to the various non-Christian belief systems, in which I was also very well schooled. You can either believe me or call me a liar because I don't give a fuck either way.
thedoc wrote:hatever IC claims, you can claim something that is, in your mind, better.
I've made it perfectly plain that I am claiming nothing. I merely ask that IC substantiates the claims which he has made.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:41 am
by thedoc
Obvious Leo wrote: I was one of their very few failures as far the religious indoctrination went but I have no complaint whatsoever about the secular education I received as well. It was far superior to anything else on offer in either the public or private systems and I'll be grateful to the Society forever for the opportunities it opened up for me in life.

Yes most people believe that the school they attended was the best that could be, but then most people go through life with their eyes closed to the truth. A few of us are able to see that teachers and professors are human with flaws of their own, I was lucky to recognize this at the time, and kept my eyes open through the rest of my life.

Re: How To Tell Right From Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:49 am
by Lacewing
Immanuel Can wrote: I am still waiting for an Atheist to give me anything plausible that legitimizes morality for him/her. This is now my fourth time of asking.
Well, for starters... I'm a human being, above and beyond all else. And, as probably most humans, I seem to have always had a natural built-in desire to connect and have empathy for other forms of life. By being observant, I can see the impact of what we do. That gives me some pretty strong indicators of what works and what feels "right", and how I can best be a beneficial contributor. I don't need a belief in a god to inspire me in this way. I don't think a belief system is any indicator of a person's morality. There are very immoral people in all walks of life... just as there are people who are aware, kind, responsible, and loving with all kinds of belief or non-belief systems.

So why would it matter at all if a person was an atheist? If someone tries to say that atheists don't have a moral compass, that's just ignorance -- and perhaps an attempt to insist on the necessity of belief in a god, and therefore validating ones own "rightness" for doing so?