Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Obvious Leo
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Skip wrote: Yeah, you haven't read Aquinas. Nice cherry-picking, tho. Too bad you dropped the ball with number 3. Having a basic understanding of the philosophical traditions that led up to ST would help there.


I have, tho. I picked the first proof of God's existence as reasonable starting point,
The first proof is as good as it gets, Skip, and its all downhill from there. Of course the official apologist to the papal court was preaching to the converted, you might say, and the converted have traditionally always been easily swayed by bollocks. The task even becomes considerably easier when the captive audience is a community of illiterate peasants without the benefit of a modern education, an excuse which today's band of brothers is denied. The modern theist has to put in a lot of hard work to ensure that his ignorance cannot be trumped by logic. Any argument about the notion of "first cause" is an insult to philosophy and a blatant affront to the notion of an examined mind, but to simply relocate such a spurious first cause into the realm of the supernatural is simply bloody laughable. An explanation which explains everything by placing it beyond the reach of philosophical enquiry is an explanation which explains NOTHING.
Skip
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Skip »

The main purpose of this work, if I recall, was to prepare Christians - curates? missionaries? inquisitors? - how to defend the logic of their faith against the logic of unbelievers. He worked on it a long time! (I have wondered, when reading some of his other work - admittedly, a lot of brain-cell-deaths ago - whether he really believed any of it. But then, I always wonder that about intelligent apologists.....)

... including relistuphd - I don't think he is at all; I think he's ReliCuNng.
Since the purpose of the question is to consider the implications if the Christian is correct, then, for the sake of argument, we have to grant the position as the Christian sees it.
Theirs the premise, the conclusion and argument, Amen. Not much point in anyone else having a point of view, is there?
Obvious Leo
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Skip wrote:The main purpose of this work, if I recall, was to prepare Christians - curates? missionaries? inquisitors? - how to defend the logic of their faith against the logic of unbelievers.
Correct. Tommy's job was to establish a consistent methodology for the indoctrination of the clergy, who would then be assigned the task of passing the message on to the godless heathen. He was bloody good at it so on scale of 1-10 he merits a 10.
Skip wrote:I have wondered, when reading some of his other work - admittedly, a lot of brain-cell-deaths ago - whether he really believed any of it. But then, I always wonder that about intelligent apologists.)
I'd be astonished if he believed a single word of it because he was undoubtedly a very smart bloke. However the Roman church was first and foremost a political institution and Tommy's role was intended to achieve a political agenda which only later and tangentially became a spiritual agenda.
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ReliStuPhD
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by ReliStuPhD »

Skip wrote:
Yeah, you haven't read Aquinas. Nice cherry-picking, tho. Too bad you dropped the ball with number 3. Having a basic understanding of the philosophical traditions that led up to ST would help there.
I have, tho. I picked the first proof of God's existence as reasonable starting point, but i'll examine any cherries you pick.
Philosophical traditions can be just as full of shit as apologist - and Aristotle is right up there with the fullest.
So if you've read Aquinas, why didn't you add the ellipses to the SparkNotes synopsis you pulled so everyone knows Aquinas' reasoning was left out of their abridgment? But at the very least, you knew he gave reasons, right? So the "no reason given" was... what? A slam-dunk way of refuting Aquinas? :roll:

So yeah, I think it's pretty clear you haven't read the Summa. (Also, SparkNotes really should indicate when they've left stuff out so people like you aren't caught unawares.)

EDIT: This reminds me of an undergrad I had once. He cut & pasted from a SparkNotes entry on Humes' Dialogues and gave it as a direct quote from Hume on a paper he wrote (actually, I’m not even sure he (the student) wrote the paper). To make matters worse, he footnoted it to look like it was from the Dialogues. That little shit was a pain in my ass all semester long. Nice kid in class, but a lazy SOB when it came to actually turning in his own work. At least I had enough evidence to send him to the Honor Council for an “Academic Integrity” violations. Of course, this is just a forum, and you're not him, so it's no grave sin. And then there's this prof at a Pentecostal school did the same thing with Aquinas. Ug.
Last edited by ReliStuPhD on Thu May 21, 2015 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Skip
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Skip »

ReliStuPhD wrote: So yeah, I think it's pretty clear you haven't read the Summa.
That's quite possible. I can't recall exactly what I've read from him. Only that I found him all wet when I was 19 or so, which is a fairly good indication that he's still at least damp.

That was off the cuff and not terribly well researched. (But then, come on, Dude! This is a pastime between chores, not my calling!)

As I said, any cherries you pick, i'll consider critiquing. And if I come across the actual book (which isn't that long a shot, since I volunteer at the library) i'll consider reading it.
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ReliStuPhD
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by ReliStuPhD »

Skip wrote:
ReliStuPhD wrote: So yeah, I think it's pretty clear you haven't read the Summa.
That's quite possible. I can't recall exactly what I've read from him. Only that I found him all wet when I was 19 or so, which is a fairly good indication that he's still at least damp.

That was off the cuff and not terribly well researched. (But then, come on, Dude! This is a pastime between chores, not my calling!)

As I said, any cherries you pick, i'll consider critiquing. And if I come across the actual book (which isn't that long a shot, since I volunteer at the library) i'll consider reading it.
:lol: :lol: OK, fair enough. Clever quips absolve everything. So let's just table this conversation until the day you come across a copy of Aquinas. It's a MASSIVE work and very difficult to tackle in forum posts in both people don't have a copy they've read and can refer to.
Skip
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Skip »

Just pick your favourite cherries already! We haven't got all century. Well, at least I haven't.

*not as sopping as Augustine, if that's any consolation
Obvious Leo
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Skip wrote:*not as sopping as Augustine, if that's any consolation
Actually I find parts of Augustine far more philosophically engaging than Aquinas, Skip, as I do the Venerable Bede who came along a couple of centuries later. Mind you I've read neither of these blokes for many many years and in all likelihood I'd probably have a different opinion now. Who needs such stricken philosophies in a world which can bring forth Kurt Vonnegut, Douglas Adams and The Life of Brian in the space of a single century?
Dalek Prime
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Dalek Prime »

My question was covered in the OP. Never mind.
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ReliStuPhD
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by ReliStuPhD »

Skip wrote:Just pick your favourite cherries already! We haven't got all century. Well, at least I haven't.

*not as sopping as Augustine, if that's any consolation
Ha! I've got no cherries to pick, as I find Aquinas to make a coherent case, even if I'm not currently convinced that it's the right one. Since it's the atheist who has the bone to pick with Christianity, I leave it to them to decide. Ultimately, my dog in this hunt is really just that the atheist present whatever it is they want to refute fairly and accurately. And so far, I've yet to see that. When an atheist can present Aquinas (or some other serious thinker) accurately and then refute them, I'll be impressed. So far, I just see a whole lot of straw men being knocked down.

So as for cherries, I think they'll come up naturally. And whether it's Aquinas, Augustine, or someone else, I'll really only be bothered if those cherries aren't presented correctly.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Obvious Leo »

ReliStuPhD wrote: So as for cherries, I think they'll come up naturally. And whether it's Aquinas, Augustine, or someone else, I'll really only be bothered if those cherries aren't presented correctly.
You seem to be assuming that non-believers in general actually care about this crap but nothing could be further from the truth. For every sweeping generalisation there are always plenty of exceptions but my experience is that most non-believers couldn't give a shit what other people choose to believe, be it gods, leprechauns, the tooth fairy, unicorns or the healing power of crystals. Knock yourselves out, guys, believe what you like, but will you for Christ's sake leave the rest of us in peace. You're the ones trying to convince us, not the other way around. Non-believers know perfectly well that logic will never sway a believer because belief is the antithesis of logic by its very definition. For precisely the same reason a believer will never sway a non-believer unless the non-believer suddenly decides that belief is a higher path to truth than logic. These things do occasionally happen in cases of severe psychological trauma but such events are rare. I suspect that the believers have got more chance of flying to Mars by flapping their arms than they have of securing converts in such unpromising territory as a philosophy forum.
Dalek Prime
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Re:

Post by Dalek Prime »

henry quirk wrote:"If Christians are right, and their God does exist, do atheists choose Hell by disbelieving?"

Yep.
God's such an malignantly useless arsehole. I resent He dragged me out of bed in the first place.

"Wakey-Wakey, Dalek! You're gonna love this!"

And what a way to wake me! Wet, cold and hungry, with one of His henchman slapping me, just to see me cry. And everyone in the room was happy about this, save me.

Well, guess what? I didnt love this. So when He comes, offering an invitation to His next party after dragging me, kicking and screaming, to His first, you'll excuse me if I tell Him to go piss Himself.

Is it Stockholm syndrome that you love him so? Learn to love your captor? Is that it? Because anyone who knows will tell you, there is no freedom or true love in such an unequivocally unequal relationship.

(And with that in mind, I'll go start a new thread on the subject. Glad I got that off my chest.)
Ned
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Ned »

Don't you just LOVE this, Rel?

People arguing about your favourite subject -- your ONLY subject, as it was a real subject at all.

The are so many other subjects on this forum that are REAL:

- Science
- Social organization
- Human Psychology
- Vegetarianism
- Death 'Penalty'
- Euthanasia
- War
- Morality
- Love
- Children
- etc., etc., etc.

and the only subject you are interested in is this phantasmagoria that you call christianity.

You suck them into discussing it as if it deserved any attention at all, other than an anthropological study or a medical curiosity, worthy of the attention of a competent psychiatrist.

Have to hand it to you: you are very good at what you are doing, but what a waste of neorons! :lol:

PS. Every time I drive by a church, I always groan: what a waste of bricks!
Ned
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by Ned »

Just in case you are not familiar with the word:
Phantasmagoria was a form of theatre which used a modified magic lantern to project frightening images such as skeletons, demons, and ghosts onto walls, smoke, or semi-transparent screens, frequently using rear projection. The projector was mobile, allowing the projected image to move and change size on the screen, and multiple projecting devices allowed for quick switching of different images.
Does this sound familiar to you?

It should!

It is synonymous with the word: 'christianity'
David Handeye
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Re: Do atheists freely choose Hell?

Post by David Handeye »

Ned wrote: PS. Every time I drive by a church, I always groan: what a waste of bricks!
and the bricks... All in all it's just a. another moron wasting time, thinking of us
Hey, moron! Leave those bricks alone.
Last edited by David Handeye on Thu May 21, 2015 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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