We are all born Atheist

[Godfree]

You've given me a buffet of comments here, Auk... and I will get to them as time permits, thank you.

But I'd like to ask you a question: "What's the first that comes to mind when you hear the word "god"?

Ignorance , stupidity ,arrogance ,nasty dictatorships , ruthless controllers ,
whats the first thing that comes to mind when I say ,"there was no beginning"

[Godfree]

what design? and evolution isn't indoctrination, its not teaching a way of life or a moral code of any kind. evolution is the explaination for the biodiversity on our planet. there has been no substainial evidence for creation or design. You're equating evolution to a culture or religion, that's like saying that calculus is indoctrination. Evolution is where the evidence led us. If the evidence led us to an entirely different explaination to biodiversity of life then it wouldn't be taught in schools. The very reason why creation and design shouldn't be taught in schools. there is no substainial evidence that even points us in that direction.

Another rational soul , welcome brother and thank you for reassuring me they aren't all ,
bonkers in here ,
I was invited to join this thread by it would seem a religious person ,
and then I find the author is sane and gets it ,,oh joy of joys , another sane brain ,
I'v been doing this for 50 years , and I may not be getting it quite right yet ,
but the more people like yourself , take the time to explain to the world ,
that religion is a irrational improbable explanation of how we came to be ,
and in comparison we have the fact of evolution that has a mountain of proof,
the sooner the world will come out of it's dream ,
out of the dark ages of ignorance and violence , religious fundamentalism ,
and into the light of Atheism and reality ,,,
keep up the good work mate ,,

[Godfree]

the second part of the question should have been clearer, the first part is rhetorical. if someone believes in any god(s) then they should want me to believe, if not then why do they believe in the first place. to clarify the second part, why should I believe in your god(s) over someone else's god(s)

Let me suggest an answer. 99.9... % of all knowlege any individual has is obtained through outside sources like history, schooling, news, books, magazines, personal communication, and so on. The individual does not live long enough to experience everything. It is therefore of primary importance that one learns to differentiate between the quality of the information that is passed on to you from others, and to discern the quality of the source itself. Now, information flow is hierarchical, has a pyramid shape, with the top quality coming from fewer qualified sources of greater veracity and capability from the top part of the pyramid. For example, would your top quality source be a supreme court justice who has decided that abortion is an OK procedure, a president who has decided that homosexual marriage is equivalent to faith based marriage, a philosopher who has not made an iota of effort to search for a personal God in his/her life? Now, as far as my life experience and research has shown me, based on public and private moral teaching, the pinnacle of the information pyramid is occupied by Jesus Christ and his teaching, there simply is no other room there. If you can show me a president, a supreme court justice, a wise man, a news pundit, a senator, a judge, an expert scientist, philosopher, common man or woman who can, e.g., turn water into wine, heal instantaneously, raise from the dead, walk on water teach equivalently to the Sermon on the Mount, and gives his life for my and your sake, then point them out to me and I will consider if I'll take my onformation from them and perhaps effect changes in my life based on their teaching.

the pinnacle of the information pyramid is jesus christ ,
bloody hell ,,,really ,
in this day and age of google and Hubble telescopes , jesus is your best knowledge,
you know nothing of these claims , you were not there , these are not accurate accounts ,
most of the stories of jesus were written well after his death , by religious people with a aim in mind ,
this is the top twenty solid gold hits of two thousand years ago ,
all the popular stories put in to one book ,
they had been telling most of those stories for a thousand years or more ,
before jesus was Horus , and Horus was the first jesus ,
he was crusified , resurrected virgin birth twelve deciples , the same story ,
being told for a thousand years until some poor smuck by the name of jesus had his turn ,
and they finaly got tired of playing that game , so he's the one we remember ,
the last of the poor fools stupid enough to go along with the story ,
well sadly the muslims havn't learnt that one yet ,
and they are still putting their jesus on the cross, daily the marters line up
stupidity , and ignorance ,
how long before they tire of the game and make a religious book about .
The Last Suicide Bomber ,
that would be a good day ...

[QMan]

Glad to revive a dormant debate. Just curious though, who is at the top of your information pyramid?

[Godfree]

Glad to revive a dormant debate. Just curious though, who is at the top of your information pyramid?

Science is usually the source of my information ,
I am at the top , I decide what is good science and what is bad science ie ,
I don't buy in to this bbt , I think it's bollocks ,
I don't accept curved space time ,,
there is a lot of science I dis-agree with ,
so once again ,, I am ...

[Godfree]

There is no such thing as an information pyramid in the absolute sense. There is only objective truth and subjective truth. Granted the two are not always presented as mutual opposites but that is superfluous to requirement when referencing them from a purely logical perspective. The purest acceptable form of objective truth is mathematics. And that is so because it is immune to human interpretation. Other examples are scientific observations of physical phenomena and non falsifiable data points or facts. But anything beyond the falsifiable cannot be regarded as objective truth [ discounting objective truth incapable of falsification ] It is subjective interpretation and as such is not as rigorous as objective truth. Though self delusion as expressed by cognitive dissonance can make one believe that ones subjective interpretation of something is actually objectively true when it is not

While I agree with everything you have said , and your logic is perfectly sound ,
I fear you have gone over the heads of those who need to get that ,
so lets try and put it in something simple enough for the simple to get ,
reality is subjective , reality is an individual experience ,
there is only one reality ,
one real world ,
to impartially look at the facts ,
there is no god life after death or miracles ,
thats what the facts say ,
so people aren't interested in the facts ,
they much prefer their nice little fantasy about heaven and the gate ,
are these grown ups , or are they children ,
frightened little children too scared to stand up and challenge god ,
a mythological creature that can't harm them at all ,
and yet they are sooooo scared , shitting themselves at the idea ,
this non-existent being might dis-approve,
ruining their chances of heaven ,
oh we can't have that ,
at whatever costs we must keep the dream alive that they may go to heaven ,,???
pathetic ,, wimps ,,

[Hobbes' Choice]

Let's start the thread with a simple question. Should I believe in your god(s)? Why or why not?

You need to know and consider that the idea of gods exist and what damage or benefit can come from such an idea.

Apart from that you might like to consider to what degree such an idea is bat-shit crazy?

[Hobbes' Choice]

We are all born theist. We are all born intuitively knowing there is a designer behind the design. Evo indoctrination at school readily takes care of that though.

This palpably false.
Babies do not even have a concept of design, let alone a designer.


It is safe to say that the idea of gods was probably the result of a few thousand years of fear and ignorance, that has petered out as enlightenment and science have provided a more careful and considered understanding of how the universe came to exist.

We are getting better at this as time goes by so much so that the ancient mythical stories no longer as sustainable, and are now only the result of inertia and the indoctrination of children at school and church.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Let's start the thread with a simple question. Should I believe in your god(s)? Why or why not?

What do you mean "god(s)"?

[Banno]

Let's start the thread with a simple question. Should I believe in your god(s)? Why or why not?

We are all born theist. We are all born intuitively knowing there is a designer behind the design. Evo indoctrination at school readily takes care of that though.

We are born without an opinion.

[Godfree]

Let's start the thread with a simple question. Should I believe in your god(s)? Why or why not?

What do you mean "god(s)"?

The one god idea is relatively recent ,
for most of our religious past there were many gods , just like India today ,
gods for this and gods for that ,
the problem with this system is it does not give enough power and control ,
to any one religion or groups within that society ,
so it's not a good control tool ,
the one god system on the other hand claims a clear line of authority ,
the one true god , their god , who ever they are ,,???
the priest or witch doctor and so on down the line ,
just like in Iran or other middle eastern countries ,
so the one god system is a dictatorship , and that is why it was successful ,
it ruthlessly destroyed all those who would not bow down to the authority of GOD ,,!!!
ignorant cruel nasty individuals ...

[jackles]

Ignorant and cruel = evil

knowing that ignorant and cruel are evil is good

good = god

[Immanuel Can]

It is safe to say that the idea of gods was probably the result of a few thousand years of fear and ignorance, that has petered out as enlightenment and science have provided a more careful and considered understanding of how the universe came to exist.

We are getting better at this as time goes by so much so that the ancient mythical stories no longer as sustainable, and are now only the result of inertia and the indoctrination of children at school and church.

Now, here is myth-making at its best...a random guess offered as the explanation for the existence of a nearly-universal phenomenon, and without one scratch of real historical evidence. It's all here -- the hero ("science"), the villain ("the idea of gods"), and an absurdly simple, uncomplicated storyline in which the former triumphs magnificently over the forces of darkness.

Bravo.

[surreptitious57]

There is no such thing as an information pyramid in an absolute sense. There is only objective truth and subjective truth. Granted the two are
not always presented as mutual opposites but that is superfluous to requirement when referencing them from a purely logical perspective. The
purest acceptable form of objective truth is mathematics. And that is so as it is immune to human interpretation. Other examples are scientific observations of physical phenomena and non falsifiable data points or facts. But anything beyond the falsifiable cannot be regarded as objective
truth [ discounting objective truth incapable of falsification ] It is subjective interpretation and so is not as rigorous as objective truth. How ever
self delusion through cognitive dissonance can make one think ones subjective interpretation of something is really objectively true when it is not