Christian apology by a non-Christian

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

I never left, Esteemed Felasco. ;-)
Felasco wrote:Might theology be defined as the search for that principle?
It depends on who is operating the theology. But in principal how could it be anything but?
What, in your opinion, should that guiding, unifying, and superior principal be? What is your theology?
You use the term 'should', as if it might be invented and not already existent. As if one would submit it to a vote perhaps? Is the existence of such a 'guiding, unifying, and superior principal' in doubt for you?

But the first questions are good ones: What is theology? And then, when a definition is established, what is demanded of us in relation to it?

Truthfully, right now, I do not define for myself a specific theology. There are a number of reasons for that. Though I think some areas or zones of an emergent theology could be gleaned from what I write.

So I could only begin with a definition of theology:
  • An acute group of principals understood as being required by what can only known through 'intelligent intuition'. Which implies, naturally, a supra-mundane and also a supra-human. To put it another way: Theology would not be defined by humankind, as if by vote. It would be as I say 'intuited'. This is obviously problematic.
  • Other principals derived from what has been written or spoken historically about the same.
_________________________________

su•pra (ˈsu prə)

adv. above, esp. when used in referring to parts of a text. Compare infra. Latin suprā (preposition) on top of, above, exceeding, (adv.) on top, higher up; akin to super-] supra- a prefix meaning “above, over” (supraorbital) or “beyond the limits of, outside of” (suprasegmental). Compare super-.
Tusok
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Tusok »

Dear Gustav,

I read your original post and skimmed through a few of your letters. I'd like to point out a few things, if I may.

First, faith is easy to define. It's what you believe that can't be proven. We all have faith to some degree.

Second, this is far from the first time any religion (let alone Christianity) has suffered an identity crisis. The creation of the Protestant church was a big one. I learned of another crisis right at the beginning of the 1800s when lots of new archeological information started flooding into Europe. The Church, in all its sects, adopt to the new conditions and forge ahead.

Finally, someone else implied that Jesus has something to do with the demise of Judaism. I think reports of Judaism's demise may be a bit premature. And since Jesus was a Hebrew, it seems to me that all of Christianity is really a sect of Judaism. When we study it in the history books, it's always described as Judeo-Christian.

Tusok
Felasco
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Felasco »

You use the term 'should', as if it might be invented and not already existent. As if one would submit it to a vote perhaps?


I just meant, which of the possible theologies, existing or to be invented, appeal to you most?
Is the existence of such a 'guiding, unifying, and superior principal' in doubt for you?
I don't see one, but a variety of competitors, as expressed by the religions and philosophies of the world.
Truthfully, right now, I do not define for myself a specific theology.
Ok, fair enough.
There are a number of reasons for that. Though I think some areas or zones of an emergent theology could be gleaned from what I write.
What I was inviting you to do was present a reasonably concise and focused summary of the theology emerging in you.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

Tusok wrote:And since Jesus was a Hebrew, it seems to me that all of Christianity is really a sect of Judaism.
Yes, I've thought a similar thing: Jesus as the Jewish Frankenstein. Terrorizing entire Gentile neighborhoods!
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

OK, Felasco, but do you see a group of competing physics, say? Or maths? Or geometries? Or what are the most fundamental and uncontested material sciences?

If such things exist, and you agree with them, is it not implied, in relation to the 'intellectually intuited' supra, that there are other levels of constants? You do understand that I am asking you if and how you define any sort of 'metaphysic'.

As to the presentation of a reasonably concise outline of my theology, I think you already know some of the elements. I don't have a problem exploring the questions but I think some effort in establishing some basic definitions would be helpful.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

Hello Tusok,

PS or 'take two':
And since Jesus was a Hebrew, it seems to me that all of Christianity is really a sect of Judaism.
I think one can examine this a bit closer and perhaps conclude differently. There certainly is a Jesus who comes through clearly in Matthew and Mark. That Jesus is entirely Judean or more properly Galilean. Not an ounce of the Greek in him. But it has been suggested that 'James, the brother of Jesus', and whatever more 'pure' Jewish-Christian doctrines, stories, viewpoints and interpretations, went south with the Roman destruction of Judea. Is any of that intact?

With Luke and John and St Paul (and everything following) I don't think it could be said, really at all, that the Jesus-religion is Jewish. The notion of a descended god is totally foreign to Jewish thought but not so Greek thought. My understanding is that a Jewish figure from a Jewish context is certainly at the core of Christianity, but almost everything that overlays it is not Jewish at all. Except some of the ethical precepts but even those are really expressed in Greek philosophical terms, or are restatements of Stoicism, Cynicism, etc.

That helps to explain Jewish antipathy toward Christianity, too.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

What do you make of this?

From W.B. Yeats, Supernatural Songs
  • XI

    The Needle's Eye

    All the stream that's roaring by
    Came out of a needle's eye;
    Things unborn, things that are gone,
    From needle's eye still goad it on.
Felasco
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Felasco »

OK, Felasco, but do you see a group of competing physics, say? Or maths? Or geometries? Or what are the most fundamental and uncontested material sciences?

If such things exist, and you agree with them, is it not implied, in relation to the 'intellectually intuited' supra, that there are other levels of constants?
Are you saying there are fundamental laws which apply to the spiritual realm as well? Are you implying we need only discover these laws as we have, say, the laws of physics, and then we'll reach the same kind of agreement as has been reached in fields like physics?
You do understand that I am asking you if and how you define any sort of 'metaphysic'.
I don't understand this one very well, sorry. Try again?
As to the presentation of a reasonably concise outline of my theology, I think you already know some of the elements.
Yes, it's a question of packaging. Your thoughts on this are spread in a somewhat random fashion throughout the thread, and I was inviting you to present a summary, especially for the benefit of those who are new to the thread, or may arrive later.

Just an idea, ignore if it you wish, no problem.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

It has become part of my understanding that 'true knowledge' is approached intuitionally. Coming to it, getting a taste of it, is part of processes that can only be alluded to. And perhaps only 'poetically'. At the higher levels, in my means of understanding, the highest and the best forms of knowledge can only be expressed (if you will excuse the turn of phrase) 'dancingly', or as shimmers off the tangibles of our visible world. Scripture, mystery, poetry, high-knowledge: these seem only to come to a man who has been 'prepared' through extremely unique means. In fact, as it happens, it is very difficult to lay one's finger on what 'that' is. The best word I have for it, and not too charged, is 'literacy'.

I know it is pretentious but…

  • W.B. Yeats from Sailing to Byzantium

    III

    O sages standing in God's holy fire
    As in the gold mosaic of a wall,
    Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre,
    And be the singing-masters of my soul.
    Consume my heart away; sick with desire
    And fastened to a dying animal
    It knows not what it is; and gather me
    Into the artifice of eternity.


    (to perne: to spin, also to shine)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

1) First order of theological understanding: that the 'miracle' is the miracle of conscious awareness. There can be no other place to begin since everything hinges on it. The Miracle therefor is that of conscious awareness within this 'world', this cosmos. Awareness then is the 'tool', the object, the reward, and also---very much so---what stands to be lost. Awareness then, as it is suggested (but not explained) must be understood as precious beyond all price. Everything begins here. Also: if a philosophy or a theology were to begin on any other premise (axiom) it should be obvious that it would have begun incompletely, even defectively.

1a) Awareness at its most 'magnificent' is largely outside and beyond that of 'the great majority'. This is not exactly a statement about class. It is is a definition that is required to understand what is being discussed, and what is being valued. I would suggest, then, that this is the primordial category; the area in which one places all one's valuation-eggs so to speak. At a primary and essential level all hierarchical definitions begin from this point and this point alone. Awareness at this level will therefor be defined as an 'art of consciousness', as something that is honed and polished. It is there too that grace---let us say 'true Grace'---must be understood to exist. In this sense, then, awareness is understood as something *bestowed*. This naturally establishes a form of hierarchy which, it is suggested, extends up and out of the 'merely human world' toward a supra-human. It would be a fundamental tenet of the theology I would define that both grace and bestowal are 'real things' which yet pertain to mysterious 'things' difficult to describe in language.

1b) We understand that it is possible to lose or forfeit awareness. It is entirely possible to descend from an 'elevated awareness' of the highest order conceivable, to that of a hominid dullard. It is necessary and crucial to understand this, and this ties into the general understanding of hierarchy that is required as an 'axiom'. We also understand that some activities (to use a very occidental term of 'action') bring forth and augment 'awareness' while others push it away and diminish it. In this way of perceiving it is not impossible for a man to descend back down toward the brute form. So, the 'special awareness' being alluded to is again understood as precious, as delicate, also as fleeting: everything that could be summed up by the term 'gracious gift'. Holding to 'awareness' thus defined, man advances. Violating the conditions of receipt of the gift destroys the connection to the source that gave it.

1c) 'Theology' would establish as a first principal that 'true, elevated and superior consciousness' is a 'mystery'. If there is a mystery it is located 'there'. To approach that mystery requires special and certainly uncommon forms of knowledge which entail the 'honing' and the 'polishing', so to speak, of that knowledge. Again, 'it' is a rare and precious thing, and it is largely incomprehensible to 'the great mass', and especially the 'great mass' raised up---bred if you are feeling cruelly incisive---in social systems nicely described in Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World Revisited'.

1d) Advancing in this arena of awareness and knowing, and the skills to reason particular to it, are not synonymous with scientific and so-called rational thinking. They have a relationship, true, but they are not comparable nor commensurate. Scientific ratiocination is entirely common. Difficult, yes, but thoroughly accessible. At the most basic it might be described as the skill of cataloging both thought-groups and material components. It is understood to occur in a domain of perception of a 'lower' order. Lower not as 'bad' but as thoroughly tangible. Theoretically, therefor, one could advance to the height of knowledge as a cataloguer of material data and yet remain, in the alluded 'high zone of awareness', thoroughly ignorant. It should be mentioned in this connexion that one very advanced result of material cataloguing enables a man to design and construct an atomic bomb.
  • Hermes in Promethius Bound:

    • "Well then, bear my warning in memory and do not blame your fortune when you are caught in the toils of calamity; nor ever say that it was Zeus who cast you into suffering unforeseen. Not so, but blame yourselves. For well forewarned, and not suddenly or secretly shall you be entangled in the inextricable net of calamity by reason of your folly".
  • Robert Oppenheimer in Physics in the Contemporary World:

    • "In some sort of crude sense which no vulgarity, no humor, no overstatement can quite extinguish, the physicists have known sin; and this is a knowledge which they cannot lose."
It should be obvious that the knowledge required is open to anyone with the will and perseverance to attain to it. It is further obvious that such penetration-manipulation cannot be understood as of the same level as the 'high dimensional awareness' (suggested here and not defined). 'High awareness' and 'divine awareness' is 'spiritual' or 'existential' awareness but is knowledge-awareness which occurs in a 'non-material arena', principally.

1e) Awareness of this sort does not come to a man through rote, or dogged perseverance, or through the handling of equations, or though manipulation of matter in laboratories and factories. One must, we understand, define very different means. We understand that we have largely lost the capacity to converse about those means.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

Further thoughts:

2) The primacy of 'awareness' and 'consciousness' seems crucial, and by these words we refer again to something 'extraordinary' and uncommon. But there arises a secondary question or problem and that is of 'energy', of 'motion', and by this refer not only to energy or motion but to specific qualities of either. The question seems to hinge on that of How will energy be directed? To what and toward what?

2a) Two obvious modes of energy movement may be posited. It seems to be an Either/Or: One employs energy and movement either consciously and as a result of intelligent direction in its purest sense, or unconsciously, semi-consciously, which points to instinctual forces, or sentimental/emotional force, or desire, or perhaps 'unconscious' force which points toward all that we understand of so-called unconscious powers and could even refer to so-called 'demonic' power. And with this problematic reference we would refer again to the words of Oppenheimer and the recognition that man's penetrations onto natural secrets places him in the position of a sort of Mephistopheles. But it seems prudent to at least mention that it is possible for intelligence to align itself with darkly willful and 'unconscious' desire and that out of this there comes into the world very strange human creations.

2c) We would suggest that if a 'superior' pole of rulership directs, and such direction is understood as 'conscious' in the best senses, that energy and motion will likely be directed toward the 'inner' than toward the outer. By 'inner' we refer to 'inner world', 'inner work', 'inner enrichment', to what is interior and intangible as compared with the so-called 'outer-world'. It seems cogent to stress that, generally speaking, it is only a 'higher' sort of consciousness that feels drawn to the 'inner world' as a or as the platform for 'inner development'. Prayer life, imaginal life, the world of intellectual creation, literary life, the honing of the soul's relationship with perceived divinity, with 'God' (Self, Atman) and even those higher questions dealing on 'fate', 'destiny', 'right and wrong' are part-and-parcel of a higher order of intelligent activity which seems to originate in an inner area of man.

Yet under the influence or rule of an unconscious force or pole we question if energy would continue to be focussed 'inwardly' (as we are calling it) nor 'responsibly' and 'intelligently', and we understand that in such a case energy and motion would tend toward external objects, toward external attainments, and 'out into the world' of multiplicity. Since we are speaking about 'energy' and its use and also 'motion' and its sort and quality, these considerations are relevant.

If very 'darkly' afflicted (intelligent aligned with outright malevolence), we understand that consciousness could be 'possessed' by what can be described as 'delirium and madness'. We most certainly suggest that, to speak generally, and in our Modern Age, man's consciousness is caught up in streams of conflicting energy and is pulled in various directions, sometimes simultaneously. We also understand that 'an average man' does not have the conceptual tools to understand his position within vast currents and his power of resistance and defense are limited. There is an on-going and somewhat 'classic' battle between what could be referred to as two opposed 'poles', each vying for ascendency in a man's 'soul'.

3) Causation. This is a very interesting question and issue. Consider the following. Everything (nearly) in the world as we understand it and the world in which we have our being, the 'world of becoming', that is of constant flow and flux and movement, or constant formation and advance, has been set in motion by an infinite causal chain. Every and all aspects of Nature (natural movement, trajectory) is thoroughly 'unfree' and in the grip of causation. And insofar as we are biological beings within this causal stream we are, in this sense, thoroughly unfree: caused. Previous causes give shape to everything that occurs in the natural world and therefor of a great many things that occur in the human world, if one understands the 'human world' to be ensconced within the 'natural world'. This means: determinism, unfreedom, slavery.

3a) We said that nearly everything is caused and part of a determined causal chain. But we understand that there is an exception, or what might be called a 'human exception' or which someone once called 'the cubic centimeter of chance' (Castaneda). So, in this 'theology' we are forced (heh heh) to understand that only in the higher dimensions of a higher sort of man (which must all be carefully explained to avoid confusion and misunderstanding), and coming from within, that is to say from a higher metaphysical and inner dimension within (a) man, might there arise within the determined causal stream the possibility of making a choice that 1) originates outside of the determined causal stream and 2) can function as a seed or a movement or an impetus that might operate against the determined causal stream. With this notion we return, in a circle, to our first axiom: that of consciousness and awareness. We state: these are absolute and thorough mysteries. Our presence and our capability within this plane of matter hinges directly on how consciousness is understood, honed and used. This is the central point, the primary area of intelligent focus. We understand that the essence of spiritual and religious life is bound up with these kinds of questions and problems.

We understand that only in a higher sort of mind, in sophisticated and developed consciousness, could there arise an impulse or an idea or a motivation that is distinct from pure determined causation that describes Nature. It is possible therefor that an idea born in this consciousness could act int he world as-against pure determinism, and that on this possibility everything hinges.

3b) Intellect. Intellection. We suggest that these terms must be rethought and re-pondered---restored in fact---to a very high place. Intellect, spirituality, intellectual life, literacy, higher dimensions of sentiment, intuition and all such similar terms and references point toward 'essences' that are hard-won and easily lost. Intellect especially must be understood as a quintessence within man's possibility. Linked to the intellect is (the notion of) 'spirit', 'pure idea', 'pure awareness', 'high consciousness'. Intellect, intellection and 'intellectualism' are quite possibly the only area where man's higher possibility has its origin, and if something can be called 'sacred' it may indeed be this. In any case, this intellect must be understood as being extremely important, worthy of development and also protection. And we suggest that there are vast potencies operating against it.

We assert that 'intellect' is also tied to any notion one can hold of 'higher metaphysical worlds', to the supra-mundane and the supra-human. At its best intellect represents and expresses groups of ideas that function against determinism (though we fully understand that in considering ourselves we must consider ourselves as 'admixtures' and as 'contaminated' vessels). And if we are to consider 'freedom' as a 'real thing' (for there can be no freedom within determined natural systems), and if we are to desire it, we have to consider at the most ultimate point where it might exist, in what form it might take, and to what aspects of a man it is most connected.

From all this we may suggest that a 'free thought' from out of man's awareness arises not from out of Nature but from something else altogether. If this is so, a 'theology' would focus on that possibility. We suggest that here the supra-human link, the connecting-point between the 'world of becoming' (nature) and the world of 'being' (the supra-mundane, the metaphysical) is what is being referred to, and indeed it is 'the most important thing'. So it is wise to linger over these points, and it is wise too to consider and to understand how in so many different ways all the above-mentioned ideas are interwoven with our own 'traditions'.

The Chinese have an ideogram: the Hexagram 61 Inner Truth, Sincerity composed of the trigram Wind, above, and the trigram Lake, below. The invisible shows itself at the interaction-point between two 'realities'. What is invisible shown itself through its effect within the visible (wind on the surface of the lake). It also describes a 'superior influence' that inspires relationship or 'concordance' within the heart of man. Also, it says that to influence 'pigs and fishes' is especially fraught:

  • "Pigs and fishes are the least intelligent of all animals and therefore the most difficult to influence. The force of inner truth must grow great indeed before its influence can extend to such creatures."

To influence any being, there has to exist in that being a 'spark' so to speak. One thing resonates with another. A 'call' goes forth and there comes a 'response'.

  • "The character of fu ('truth') is actually the picture of a bird's foot over a fledgling. It suggests the idea of brooding. An egg is hollow. The light-giving power must work to quicken it from outside, but there must be a germ of life within, if life is to be awakened. Far-reaching speculations can be linked with these ideas."

3c) What augments and what diminishes 'the manifestation of the divine' as we have alluded here? This is also a crucial question. To begin to probe this question is to begin to probe within a strange and mysterious territory.
Felasco
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Felasco »

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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

Possibilities:

1) The opening page of Felasco's 'memoires'. To be published as part of the Akashic Records and accessible 'mystically'.

2) An uncommon Chinese pictogram representing the trajectory of his thought for the last 45 years.

3) A warning from the Universal Mama to all mankind: 'Don't let your babies grow up to be hippies!'

4) The Teaching of San Felasco as revealed through a Cubensis-Elf, recorded in the deep North Florida woods!

5) A fragment of a secessionist manifesto from February 3, 1858 by an undecided Rebel.

6) Oh I get it: A hollow egg. :::smacks forehead:::

;-)
Last edited by Gustav Bjornstrand on Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Felasco
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Felasco »

Those were pretty good possibilities! Although it was hard to choose, in the end I had to settle on #3 as a favorite. Could you have Willy Nelson sing that for us please? :-)

Here's another possibility.

1) The value of a philosophy would seem to be judged by how well that philosophy represents reality.

2) The overwhelming vast majority of reality appears to be nothing.

Our situation as philosophers might be compared to that of the astronomers. Astronomers spend their careers studying stars, planets, moons, asteroids, comets, galaxies, etc, even though the nothing between the all the somethings utterly dwarfs the somethings.

To what degree do astronomy and philosophy actually concern themselves with reality?

If a religious/Christian inquiry doesn't feel obligated to concern itself with the vast majority of reality, what are the chances it will yield something of value?
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

There is one I forgot:
  • 7) A whole mess of scattered thought after one toke of Gainesville Green.
Although I do appreciate you, Felasco, it has become clear to me that there is no way to make progress in conversing with you. I had spent about 30 minutes writing a response to your latest mishegoss but then I literally :::smacked my forehead:::
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Felasco »

Although I do appreciate you, Felasco, it has become clear to me that there is no way to make progress in conversing with you.
I appreciate your appreciation, and same to you.

It is however simply not true that there is no way to make progress in conversing with me. It does seem true that you do not desire to progress in the direction that I argue the evidence is leading us, which is of course your right.

You position yourself as a reasoner. I propose if we are to be reasoners that requires us to become slaves to the evidence trail. That is, as reasoners we aren't driving the boat, we don't get to go where we want to go, we can only follow the trail of evidence breadcrumbs where ever it may lead. That's what I'm attempting to do, however imperfectly.

If you should be willing to surrender to the evidence trail, I believe you will soon come upon the significant fact that the majority of reality appears to be nothing.

If you don't like this fact, you are of course free to sweep it aside so you can like the astronomers focus on what interests and entertains you, the somethings. In doing so you would of course be turning your attention to an almost immeasurably small fraction of reality, but you are free to make that choice.

But I propose we can not really label such a choice as making progress in a reasoned inquiry about the nature of reality and our place in it etc. Ignoring the single largest fact about reality doesn't seem to qualify as either progress or reason.

The problem is not that I won't reason with you. The problem is that you can't defeat the reason I am presenting, and that such reason reveals that the evidence trail is leading us in a direction you don't want to go.

I say that if we wish to claim the title of reasoner, where we want to go has nothing to do with it.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Christian apology by a non-Christian

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

What you do, Felasco, is to continually bring a conversation, any conversation, onto the one and only ground with which you feign experience. And you set it up with a falsely conceived premise from what you call 'the evidence trail': that because you understand 'reality' as being more space than matter that somehow this means that you should, I should, we should focus on the empty space. It is simply a bizarre premise and an equally bizarre tactic.

You asked for me to spell out some definitions toward theology. I did this. And your response was a sort of Bozo-the-Clown or Zen-Bozo trick. I admit to finding it amusing but I can't take it seriously. Now, you will claim the ground for the possibility of conversation as within the 'terms' (empty space) that you claim as your own.

But still I would not and could not 'deny' any of the tactics, strategies, practices and non-doings that come from, say, 'Zen-zaniness'. That sort of koanishness has a place but I think one has to sign up for it!
The problem is that you can't defeat the reason I am presenting...
This is indeed true! But the 'evidence' that you present, or the fact that you describe, has no bearing that I can discern on the issues and definitions that concern me or that are possible to discuss. And too, you do not make and have not made any substantial statement about what am man should do in the face of the over-all emptiness of the universe.

You remind me of someone who has come upon his 'knowledge' in a sort of psychedelic haze. The 'knowledge' is overpowering and appears to answer all questions and in this way possesses that man. I really don't know what else to say.

Still, I do have ideas about where I would take the definitions with which I recently began. What concerns me, though I don't think you will understand the term, is nihilism and the way it operates in our thinking. It is another way of considering the effect of 'nothing' BTW. ;-)

So please note: Twenty minutes has been devoted to 'answering' a local narcissistic hippy. It has not advanced in any sense my definitions nor have your recent statements enlarged your own. It is A WASTE OF TIME and is not even, really, fun.
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