Why do good people suffer?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

artisticsolution
Posts: 1938
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by artisticsolution »

reasonvemotion wrote:
All sin, there is no discrimination.



"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

John 8:7

and that is why we suffer.
Infants don't sin...why do they suffer?
User avatar
mtmynd1
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: TX, USA

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by mtmynd1 »

The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.
reasonvemotion
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by reasonvemotion »

The “problem of pain,” as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheism’s most potent weapon against the Christian faith.

“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God” (Psalm 14:1).

Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in “no God”, must resort finally to philosophical objections. And this problem of suffering is the greatest of these.

There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.

Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God’s wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

The world is now under God’s Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man’s rebellion against God’s Word.

This “bondage of corruption,” with the “whole world groaning and travailing together in pain” (Romans 8:21-22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way.

Proverbs 14:8 The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception.
artisticsolution
Posts: 1938
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by artisticsolution »

reasonvemotion wrote: God did not create the world this way.
You are right...God did not create the world this way...he created people this way.

According to the bible we would not exist without him. In creating us he created evil. Or perhaps he gave us a way out...our intellect...which we so often forget when interpreting the bible.

Look...all I am saying is either God is logical or he is not. If he is logical, then it stands to reason that he can be understood by us. And it's not rocket science either...the key is to try to read the bible with one thing in mind. Is God good or is he evil? Let's think about that for a sec...does it stand to reason that a guy who gave us the 10 commandments is evil? Uh...not. Obviously...those are good things to obey. yes yes...I know...free will...but also free will when interpreting the bible. And I believe that is were most Christians lose their way. Why does logic go out the door when a Christian picks up the bible? It's as if they say, "Oh...I am about to read the bible..let me take off my thinking cap."

The problem I think is not in understanding him...I think he made it perfectly clear what he is for and what he is against. What is not logical is to misrepresent what he said without a clue to who he is and what his message truly advocates. God's message is of goodness and light. His commandments tell us so...no where in the commandments does it say to do anything remotely immoral. IN FACT...I don't think the bible can be interpreted without taking the 10 commandments into account. I also think to believe that God intended babies to suffer is absurd.

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Only the one who does the will of my father....

It is not up to us to judge the reasons why there is suffering...only to trust that God is good and try to behave in that manner. I say a good God would not allow a baby to suffer....so then if they do...I will not say...oh....it's because they are going to be evil someday so they deserve it and have it coming. It is just not logical to even want to follow a God like this....do you even understand what I am saying? I am saying that IF God is logical/logic (and he would have to be to create this universe) THEN he made us in his image in order to understand him. He wrote an entire book on the subject of understanding him for pete's sake! It is just absurd to say..."well...you know those babies....God wants to punish those bastards before they have even done a darn thing! Glory be to God!" No no no.. This is not the God of the bible. This is not the God that gave us the very rational 10 commandments. This is not the God who...when about to witness the stoning of a whore....said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone." It is not logical. God gave you a brain...why do you forgo it to believe some evil illogical conclusions that have nothing to do with God?

Is it possible that you are mistaken? Is it possible that God is not the dick you (and the church) make him out to be?
reasonvemotion
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by reasonvemotion »

God did not create the world this way.
You are right...God did not create the world this way...he created people this way.
According to the bible we would not exist without him. In creating us he created evil.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezc. 28:15.

Or perhaps he gave us a way out...our intellect...which we so often forget when interpreting the bible.

The word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path (Ps. 119:105)

Look...all I am saying is either God is logical or he is not. If he is logical, then it stands to reason that he can be understood by us. And it's not rocket science either...the key is to try to read the bible with one thing in mind. Is God good or is he evil? Let's think about that for a sec...does it stand to reason that a guy who gave us the 10 commandments is evil?

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:2-4.
It is therefore impossible for us to keep the commandments without the grace of God.



Uh...not. Obviously...those are good things to obey. yes yes...I know...free will...but also free will when interpreting the bible. And I believe that is were most Christians lose their way. Why does logic go out the door when a Christian picks up the bible? It's as if they say, "Oh...I am about to read the bible..let me take off my thinking cap."

Such people "wrest" or twist the Bible out of its true meaning. 2 Peter 3:15-16.

The problem I think is not in understanding him...I think he made it perfectly clear what he is for and what he is against. What is not logical is to misrepresent what he said without a clue to who he is and what his message truly advocates.

Jesus rightly divided it by subjects. Took subject of His first advent through whole Old Testament. Luke 4:16-20

God's message is of goodness and light. His commandments tell us so...no where in the commandments does it say to do anything remotely immoral. IN FACT...I don't think the bible can be interpreted without taking the 10 commandments into account. I also think to believe that God intended babies to suffer is absurd.


I quoted from Scripture we are all sinners by nature and it is inevitable the child will eventually become the sinner as soon as they are able to. This is universal experience. Every man is a sinner.

God holds up as example and his love of the child in comparison to man, when he said:

Matthew 18:4 Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:6 But whoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Only the one who does the will of my father....
It is not up to us to judge the reasons why there is suffering...
only to trust that God is good and try to behave in that manner. I say a good God would not allow a baby to suffer....so then if they do...I will not say...oh....it's because they are going to be evil someday so they deserve it and have it coming. It is just not logical to even want to follow a God like this....do you even understand what I am saying? I am saying that IF God is logical/logic (and he would have to be to create this universe) THEN he made us in his image in order to understand him. He wrote an entire book on the subject of understanding him for pete's sake!is just absurd to say..."well...you know those babies....God wants to punish those bastards before they have even done a darn thing! Glory be to God!" No no no.. This is not the God of the bible. This is not the God that gave us the very rational 10 commandments. This is not the God who...when about to witness the stoning of a whore....said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone." It is not logical. God gave you a brain...why do you forgo it to believe some evil illogical conclusions that have nothing to do with God?

Is it possible that you are mistaken? Is it possible that God is not the dick you (and the church) make him out to be?

I am not mistaken.

The church is not the word of God, in fact many churches do not teach it.

How to study the Bible

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so". Acts 17:11.
User avatar
Notvacka
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:37 am

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by Notvacka »

reasonvemotion wrote:There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.
We are all guilty of being innocent, since the choice was never ours in the first place. God made us who we are. There can be but one free will, the will of God. Therefore, nobody could "deserve" punishment, other than God. But we have already crucified Christ once, and personally I don't believe in the death penalty, or any kind of punishment, even for the truly guilty. What I want is compensation, for the pain I suffer and for the pain I cause.
reasonvemotion wrote:Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God’s wrath on the basis of his own innocence.
It's not Christian to claim your own innocence or guilt. It all belongs to God, the blame and the glory. This is the truth that willl set you free. Did Jesus not take it all upon himself, in the name of God?
reasonvemotion wrote:As far as babies are concerned, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.
Of course. Because this world is sin.
reasonvemotion wrote:The world is now under God’s Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man’s rebellion against God’s Word.
But it's not actually a rebellion. How could it be? What God wants, God gets. We all do what God set us here to do. If there is a rebellion, it's because God wants a rebellion. It all serves the same purpose.
reasonvemotion wrote:God did not create the world this way.
No? This is the way the world is. This is what God has done. Nothing happens against God's will.
reasonvemotion
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by reasonvemotion »

reasonvemotion wrote:

God did not create the world this way.


Notvacka wrote:

No? This is the way the world is. This is what God has done. Nothing happens against God's will.

Can you direct me to the Chapter or verse in the Scriptures that states God is responsible for man's downfall.
artisticsolution
Posts: 1938
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by artisticsolution »

reasonvemotion wrote:


Can you direct me to the Chapter or verse in the Scriptures that states God is responsible for man's downfall.
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being

Either God knows all or he doesn't. If he knows all then he knew full well what would happen when he breathed life into us.

You have been taught wrong. You are sick because of it. You cannot get to 'good' by going way of 'evil'. It is impossible. It is illogical and evil to use the scriptures to condone your immorality. There are many scriptures which point to redemption....but those are for the lord only. Those are not for you to justify your immoral behavior i.e. "the lord wants me to be skeptical of all people." If you are reading something in the bible that tells you to distrust all people and be afraid...you have misinterpreted it somehow...you need to go back and read it again, keeping in mind one of the 10 commandments says "love thy neighbor".

However...all that being said...I think you are alright anyway...because you don't understand that is what you are doing. I have noticed you have trouble with reading comprehension and you lack the ability to discern meaning in the written word...not your fault. At least I don't think God will fault you for that...unless of course deep down you know what you are doing is wrong. In that case you are toast like the rest of us. :wink:
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5457
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

artisticsolution wrote:
Hjarloprillar wrote: "They gave me a medal for killing more than 100 men. I still vomit at thought. They all wait for me in hell waiting."
He said.. "do no harm" then he said no more.[shooed me away in fact]
But how are we to know if what we do is right or wrong? It's not like we are Abraham and actually have God speak to us so that we know for sure.
This is easy. Right and Wrong, Good and Bad, or Good and Evil, is a dichotomy created by man, therefore it only speaks to men, and as such good is anything that supports life and creation, while evil destroys life and creation. It is false to rationalize, saying that such evil actions may at some time thwart an even greater evil. The only view that makes any kind of real sense is that Good or evil is a case by case situation, and that there is no time when doing that which destroys, is OK, as in all cases the destroyer knows not what he truly does, i.e., the whys that are contained within the matter, (the truthful dynamics), if you will. All people that take lives, always do so out of ignorance and/or fear. The only life one has a right to take is there own.
artisticsolution
Posts: 1938
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by artisticsolution »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:
But how are we to know if what we do is right or wrong? It's not like we are Abraham and actually have God speak to us so that we know for sure.
This is easy. Right and Wrong, Good and Bad, or Good and Evil, is a dichotomy created by man, therefore it only speaks to men, and as such good is anything that supports life and creation, while evil destroys life and creation. It is false to rationalize, saying that such evil actions may at some time thwart an even greater evil. The only view that makes any kind of real sense is that Good or evil is a case by case situation, and that there is no time when doing that which destroys, is OK, as in all cases the destroyer knows not what he truly does, i.e., the whys that are contained within the matter, (the truthful dynamics), if you will. All people that take lives, always do so out of ignorance and/or fear. The only life one has a right to take is there own.
I tend to agree with you here...generally speaking. But the point I was trying to make is that God does not speak to us like he did to Abraham. My point is...we are screwed if we do and screwed if we don't.

Suppose someone comes at me with a knife, my instinct is to fight for my life...even if it means killing the other person. I can disregard my feelings and allow the other person to kill me...or I can save my own life and kill them first. I happen to think that even if I killed the person who was about to attack me...I would be wrong to do so...as 2 wrongs don't make a right.

It is in this sense that I say we are screwed no matter what we do. If there is a God, and the 10 commandments are true...then there is no way we could go through life not ever committing at least one of them by default. To put a survival instinct in us AND then also require us not to kill even if put to the test is absurd, as it puts us in a no win situation. But we, being the clever people that we are....will rationalize, "well God gave me that sense in order to save my own life." Then we go farther...and rationalize..."well if God gave me the instinct to save my own life..then preemptive strikes should be okay...as it is clear they want to kill me as they just threatened to do so." It is this dichotomy that I speak of and nothing else. Following the bible is tricky business as it is soo easy to be led astray by our own hearts and minds.

I am just saying is all....there is no justification. Any justification would be in our own mind for the soul purpose of making us 'feel' better about the paradox we live in.... religiously speaking.
homegrown
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:37 pm

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by homegrown »

To inform them.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5457
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

artisticsolution wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:
But how are we to know if what we do is right or wrong? It's not like we are Abraham and actually have God speak to us so that we know for sure.
This is easy. Right and Wrong, Good and Bad, or Good and Evil, is a dichotomy created by man, therefore it only speaks to men, and as such good is anything that supports life and creation, while evil destroys life and creation. It is false to rationalize, saying that such evil actions may at some time thwart an even greater evil. The only view that makes any kind of real sense is that Good or evil is a case by case situation, and that there is no time when doing that which destroys, is OK, as in all cases the destroyer knows not what he truly does, i.e., the whys that are contained within the matter, (the truthful dynamics), if you will. All people that take lives, always do so out of ignorance and/or fear. The only life one has a right to take is there own.
I tend to agree with you here...generally speaking. But the point I was trying to make is that God does not speak to us like he did to Abraham. My point is...we are screwed if we do and screwed if we don't.
No human has ever spoken to any creator. But it is true that anyone can say or write anything they want, as with ancient texts seen much later in time, it's a coin toss to see how many believe it, either way, and I'd say it may be at about 50/50 if no other form of persuasion is employed.


Suppose someone comes at me with a knife, my instinct is to fight for my life...even if it means killing the other person. I can disregard my feelings and allow the other person to kill me...or I can save my own life and kill them first. I happen to think that even if I killed the person who was about to attack me...I would be wrong to do so...as 2 wrongs don't make a right.
The only fight, in terms of our topic, killing, that is justified, is contained in the direct "defense," of ones innocence, in the spur of the moment, when time is of the essence, no time to adjust for this ignorance that is contained in the event. And that is all.

If time allows for one to truly think, of all the whys involved in such a case, one that's truly wise, can only conclude, that of ignorance and fear, rules that moment.



It is in this sense that I say we are screwed no matter what we do. If there is a God, and the 10 commandments are true...then there is no way we could go through life not ever committing at least one of them by default. To put a survival instinct in us AND then also require us not to kill even if put to the test is absurd, as it puts us in a no win situation. But we, being the clever people that we are....will rationalize, "well God gave me that sense in order to save my own life." Then we go farther...and rationalize..."well if God gave me the instinct to save my own life..then preemptive strikes should be okay...as it is clear they want to kill me as they just threatened to do so." It is this dichotomy that I speak of and nothing else. Following the bible is tricky business as it is soo easy to be led astray by our own hearts and minds.
Again, evil is only done, if it's intended, with much time to consider; if it's perpetrated as for any other reason, than to defend, and by accident in that defense. As then, you never intend it, but merely fall victim, to avoid being killed.


I am just saying is all....there is no justification. Any justification would be in our own mind for the soul purpose of making us 'feel' better about the paradox we live in.... religiously speaking.
Of course it is only contained in our minds, the minds of so called civilized beings. Is that what separates us from lower life forms? We simply see that each of us cherishes life, through our own eyes, as surely they are like us. And this is where it comes from, this justification. You may, unfortunately, find proximity with a rogue, a nut, a murderer, but make no mistake, it comes from ignorance and fear. The justification comes with the understanding of equality for all, in the pursuit of each life's meaning, for itself, at no others unnecessary expense, where unnecessary is only non "direct" defense.
homegrown
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:37 pm

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by homegrown »

if you believe in a Creator God, then infallibility would necessitate that He built into Creation the lessons he would teach. Hence the relation between the validity of the knowledge bases of action and causality. If you suffer it's because you (humankind) are wrong to reality.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5457
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

homegrown wrote:if you believe in a Creator God, then infallibility would necessitate that He built into Creation the lessons he would teach. Hence the relation between the validity of the knowledge bases of action and causality. If you suffer it's because you (humankind) are wrong to reality.
If you are the very first to walk beside an extremely tall mountain peak, as is crumbles to fall upon you, as you lie there in pain, unable to move, alive, so as to experience, you are indeed suffering. Cowboys shoot horses in the head, when they come up lame, so as to end their suffering.

I for one am agnostic, as no one could possibly know, with certainty, which is the case.
User avatar
Notvacka
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:37 am

Re: Why do good people suffer?

Post by Notvacka »

reasonvemotion wrote:Can you direct me to the Chapter or verse in the Scriptures that states God is responsible for man's downfall.
There is no need to quote Scripture. Either God is the supreme creator, the sole source and cause of everything, or not. And if not, then we are not really talking about God with a capital "G" but merely about a "god", some hypothetical higher being of limited power and little philosophical consequence.

Myself, I believe that nothing comes from nothing and everything comes from God. And with absolute power comes absolute responsibility. That's why Jesus makes sense, when he takes the sins of the world upon himself in the name of God. Because we are what God made us; our sins are God's sins; they belong to God like everything belongs to God.

As for man's "downfall", regardless of how literally or symbolically you interpret Genesis, it's obvious that the game is rigged from the start; sooner or later somebody will eat the fruit. And God puts the snake there to make sure it happens sooner rather than later. (As everything else, Satan comes from God, because there can be no other source.)

The chocie Adam and Eve are faced with is not between good and evil; it's a blind choice between status quo and change. And change is inevitable. Most importantly, the choice is blind. As Jesus put it: They don't know what they are doing. Blind obedience is just as meaningless as blind disobedience. Evil and suffering exist in the world because without it, the world would not mean anything.
Post Reply