How come he doesn't exist ?!

[Khalid]

Where?

17 Israa : verse 16 , He who follows the right way follows it only for the good of his own soul: and he who goes astray, goes astray only to his own loss. And no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another. We never punish until We have sent a Messenger.

BUt you are the messenger and all you ever say is I don't know, or I don't understand.

I'm not a messenger .
I understood the word "mythology" but I was not sure of the whole meaning of the question and the word relevant . I can never be perfect in English .

And all you say sounds ridiculous.

2:88 And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe.

I'm already cursed it seems.

In other words :
[45:8] Woe to every sinful liar,
[45:9] Who hears the Signs of Allah recited unto him, and then proudly persists in his disbelief, as though he heard them not. So give him the tidings of a painful punishment.
[45:10] And when he learns something of Our Signs, he makes a jest of them. For such there is an abasing punishment.

[Notvacka]

Such a petty God

Could you choose pleasant words next time please because I can't accept hearing such words as a muslim . Thanks in advance .

Sorry about that. But I was not really talking about God; I was talking about your distorted image of God, about your petty notions of heaven and hell, punishment and reward. These are human notions and beneath God. Like most religions, Islam diminishes God, by ascribing all sorts of human traits to the Creator.

You have not understood the meaning of omnipotence. Why do you bow down when you pray? Are you not small enough already, compared to the allmighty Creator? A human dictator might demand such signs of submission, because his power depends on people obeying his commands. But God does not depend on anything. Why do you treat God like a petty dictator? You can raise up a king, but you can't raise God, who is already above all. God has no need for your humility.

And you pride yourself against the atheists, even though their disbelief is a gift from God, as your belief is a gift from God. The Creator is the source of everything. You don't like listening to blaphemy? Where do you think blasphemous thoughts come from? Believing that there is some source other than the Creator, believing that anything can be said or done against God, that is as blasphemous as it gets. And God has no need for your pride either.

So, even if I had been talking about God, it would not matter, because God can't be hurt. However, out of respect for you, I will try to refrain from saying anything that could be interpreted as demeaning. Because, while insulting God is impossible, humans can be rather sensitive.

[chaz wyman]

Such a petty God

Could you choose pleasant words next time please because I can't accept hearing such words as a muslim . Thanks in advance .

Sorry about that. But I was not really talking about God; I was talking about your distorted image of God, about your petty notions of heaven and hell, punishment and reward. These are human notions and beneath God. Like most religions, Islam diminishes God, by ascribing all sorts of human traits to the Creator.

You have not understood the meaning of omnipotence. Why do you bow down when you pray? Are you not small enough already, compared to the allmighty Creator? A human dictator might demand such signs of submission, because his power depends on people obeying his commands. But God does not depend on anything. Why do you treat God like a petty dictator? You can raise up a king, but you can't raise God, who is already above all. God has no need for your humility.

And you pride yourself against the atheists, even though their disbelief is a gift from God, as your belief is a gift from God. The Creator is the source of everything. You don't like listening to blaphemy? Where do you think blasphemous thoughts come from? Believing that there is some source other than the Creator, believing that anything can be said or done against God, that is as blasphemous as it gets. And God has no need for your pride either.

So, even if I had been talking about God, it would not matter, because God can't be hurt. However, out of respect for you, I will try to refrain from saying anything that could be interpreted as demeaning. Because, while insulting God is impossible, humans can be rather sensitive.

The difference between Khalid's god and yours is that you have thought things through with regard to the world as it is, and not like you think it ought to be.
Khalid and his crew think that you and I need to comply with their world view, and it is for that reason that Islam is a danger to the West, and more particularly to the world in general. The long term threat to world peace posed by Islam and other forms of fundamentalist religions is vast, especially in a world with nuclear weapons.

Whilst you search for your god, though, you make him/it/her/thing remote and of no importance to your life or anyone else's. You have only to understand nature and the structure of the world to find your god, but what do you actually find?
You find there is nothing. God as an idea is functionless, reduced to the areas of nature for which we have little understanding. I suppose my question is why call that god at all? You god like the universe is indifferent to our lives, as if they were of no importance.

[Kayla]

khalid

according to the bible god wants everyone to be saved - 1 Timothy 2:4

now i find it incredible that in light of this verse anyone would believe eternal damnation - the existence of which god clearly does not want

are you saying in the quran, god does not particularly care one way or another if someone goes to hell or not

[chaz wyman]

khalid

according to the bible god wants everyone to be saved - 1 Timothy 2:4

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -- Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:23-25

Many are called, few are chosen.

Oh yeah, and God will try to trick you too.

God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

So Who wins Timothy or Thessalonians, Mark and Matthew?

[Kayla]

you do know that 'eye of a needle' refers to a gate in jerusalem through which it was difficult but not impossible for a camel to go through

the bible is not meant to be taken literally silly

[Notvacka]

Whilst you search for your god, though, you make him/it/her/thing remote and of no importance to your life or anyone else's.

That is not the case. The God I believe in is not remote, but ever present.

You have only to understand nature and the structure of the world to find your god, but what do you actually find? You find there is nothing.

There are several sides to seeking God, really. One is all about listening. (Remember how our forum friend Typist used to talk about shutting up and listening to the silence? Though he got almost everything else wrong, particularly in Political Philosophy, I think he got that part right.) The nothing I experience at the "ground" (Nikolai's term, I believe) is myself. At the heart of the religious experience lies freedom from the ego, which is the only true freedom attainable in this world. But you have to experience it yourself.

Another side is trying to make sense of it all, intellectually. While I believe that the religious experience is available to everybody who bothers to listen (to the silence, not to some preacher), making sense of it is another matter. Hence the notion of "accepting God's kingdom like a child". (Yes, it's from the Bible. I tend to cherry-pick the holy books.)

God as an idea is functionless, reduced to the areas of nature for which we have little understanding.

No, the idea is not primarily for God to fill the gaps of science (like in our discussion with Kuznetzova in the topic about particular facts and general laws.) You can't reach God intellectually, other than as a dead end on par with a supposed multiverse. In this regard, God is rather functionless, I agree. You must reach God emotionally first. Intellectually, God has to be introduced as an axiom, on purely emotional grounds. Then you can apply logic and reason to the God concept, in order to avoid the many pitfalls of religion.

I suppose my question is why call that god at all? You god like the universe is indifferent to our lives, as if they were of no importance.

My God is not indifferent. That which you call God is an intellectual dead end, mine is a beginning.

[Khalid]

Notvacka ,
You believe there is a creator who created mankind , all creatures and the whole universe , but you refuse the idea of a religion telling you what's right or wrong , good and evil, telling you the purpose of life and other things .
I tell you something, if we both agree that God created us , then God has to tell us why he created us ? What are we doing here and what is the purpose of life ? He must send us a guidance to answer all those questions and to tell us what God wants from us . If you have a new machine in your house and you need to know how to works , you bring the machine's catalog and start to read the instructions , the same with us. God created us , gave us our lives , mind , heart and body and sent us the catalog that we gotta need to live a happy life , satisfy God and carry out the purpose of life. A catalog answering all the questions , telling us the meaning of life and how we should live.

Why do you bow down when you pray? Are you not small enough already, compared to the allmighty Creator? A human dictator might demand such signs of submission.....

I bow down glorifying God , the only one worthy glorification and worship. Then you feel you are very strong person and not afraid of anyone , no matter how poor you are , how weak you are , how old you are , your position in society cause Allah is with you , loves you and preparing paradise for you in the after life . You are not afraid of a manager who might fire you from work , you are not afraid of poverty , of tomorrow of anything and you never bow to anyone else .

And you pride yourself against the atheists,

I didn't show any pride in the beginning , me and my words have been mocked so I had to reply to someone saying Muhammad was a funny man and ......... etc . He makes the conversation goes out of an intellectual philosophical debate or discussion .

[Khalid]

it is for that reason that Islam is a danger to the West, and more particularly to the world in general. The long term threat to world peace posed by Islam and other forms of fundamentalist religions is vast, especially in a world with nuclear weapons.

It's amazing how you change the conversation from a discussion about religion and God into Politics . Alright shall you answer me please .
Who kindled the World war I , muslims ?
Who kindled the world war II , muslims ?
Who fired or launched the Hiroshima Atomic bomb , muslims ?
Who killed millions "Aborigines" Original inhabitants of Australia , Muslims?
Who exterminated millions of the red Indians in North America , muslims ?
Who enslaved tens of millions of black Africans , Islam or muslims ?

You are a fuckin retard .
Nay , Islam has never been a threat to the world peace and never will . Tell me how many Islamic or Arab countries that have Nuke heads ?

[Arising_uk]

It depends , if I'm talking to a Christian I'd question him , do you believe Jesus is God ? If so shall you show me any verse in the bible (Any version) in which Jesus declaring that he's God and we should worship him ? Any statement in which Jesus says I'm Allah ? How could God be human? Secondly I'll ask him to open the bible , book genesis chapter 19 verse 30 , and I'll ask him to read . He will find verses telling that prophet Lot's daughters made their father drink wine to have sex with them while they were dwelling in the mountains and get babies of their father who didn't refuse . http://www.learnthebible.org/bible/3/GEN/19/30-38...

My Christian friend , have you read the Quran before? Do you know that Jesus messenger was mentioned 25 times while Muhammad was mentioned only 5 ? Do you know that there is a whole Surah "chapter" about Mary telling beautiful and great things about her and her great story and suffering ? Do you know that Jesus is a very great person in Islam ? Do you know that muslims love Jesus and his mother so much ?

Then it's up to him to accept what I'm saying or refuse it .

Not being a Christian I'd have to guess at their reply but one thought is that the Christians should follow the New Testament not the Old so your quotes are not relevant. I also think they don't worship Jesus but 'God', much as the Muslim claims to do.

The discussion about Jesus being the 'son of god' took many years and much bloodshed before it was settled by a Roman Emperor who got sick of the fighting and told them to sit down and construct the Bible, so your book appears to be built upon another.

Personally I understand why you theist believers have a faith as its a useful thing when faced with the reality of the world and can give much succour but it was given to you before you could reason and as such I think it a blind thing and leads to much grief in the world because it brooks no competitors. It can't even stand those who believe in the same 'God' but follow different messengers. So for me you theists and your 'God' are incoherent and, personally, I think mentally deranged, as you believe things by faith and not reason which leads you to accept pretty much any old nonsense from those who wish to keep power over you. For example, I've heard from Muslims that your 'prophet' was illiterate before he wrote the Koran and this shows that it is the word of 'God' but this nonsense is up there with the Christian idea of a 'virgin' birth.

What would you say to a Buddhist who brooks no 'God'? We know what the Muslim Taliban think about them as they destroyed priceless Buddhist artefacts due to their faith in the Koran.

[Khalid]

khalid

according to the bible god wants everyone to be saved - 1 Timothy 2:4

now i find it incredible that in light of this verse anyone would believe eternal damnation - the existence of which god clearly does not want

are you saying in the quran, god does not particularly care one way or another if someone goes to hell or not

In Islam , God wants everybody to be saved too , God is merciful and gracious , he accepts repentance . He says "O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous - " and he will feel sorry for people who deserved punishment and Fire . There is a verse describing a scene of the judgement day in which God talks to companions of the Fire . As he says "Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - [for] indeed, he is to you a clear enemy -" . "And that you worship [only] Me? This is a straight path."


O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous,
Who created you, proportioned you, and balanced you?

[Arising_uk]

It's amazing how you change the conversation from a discussion about religion and God into Politics . Alright shall you answer me please.

Not a really useful defense Khalid as history is a fickle thing and if you go back far enough all is generally connected.

Who kindled the World war I , muslims ?

They had a hand in it as the Ottoman Empire was in decline and fighting for existence.

Who kindled the world war II , muslims ?

No, but it was not a religious war so its pretty immaterial which faiths were involved.

Who fired or launched the Hiroshima Atomic bomb , muslims ?

Nope.

Who killed millions "Aborigines" Original inhabitants of Australia , Muslims?

Nope.

Who exterminated millions of the red Indians in North America , muslims ?

Nope

Who enslaved tens of millions of black Africans , Islam or muslims ?

Yup! Who do you think we brought them from. Slavery has a long history in Islam.

Nay , Islam has never been a threat to the world peace and never will . Tell me how many Islamic or Arab countries that have Nuke heads ?

Of course you are a threat to those who do not believe as you do as they challenge your beliefs, all theist believers are such a thing(although maybe not the Jew) as you believe you know the 'Truth' and have a judgement day in your beliefs.

You don't have nukes because the treaties were set up to stop the proliferation of such things, not that I think that will stop certain countries getting them as its hypocrisy for some countries to have them and deny them to others but I can understand the attempt as the religious believer is not bound by reason and as such I think them more unstable in their actions.

You talk as tho' the Muslim world was one? Why do you do this as from what I see there is great division and enmity amongst the faithful. Pretty much the only thing that unites you is a persecution complex and a hatred of Israel which is why I think the 'West' should stop interfering in the Middle East and let you alone as you'll soon devolve into internal strife. Not that I think this will happen as it is and always has been about Oil.

[Kayla]

In Islam , God wants everybody to be saved too , God is merciful and gracious , he accepts repentance .

so is it possible for something that God wants to not happen

[Kayla]

Pretty much the only thing that unites you is a persecution complex and a hatred of Israel

not even that

indonesia - the most populous muslim country - has unofficial diplomatic relations with israel and are very willing welcome israeli tourists

i have heard an indonesian say that israel cannot be all that bad if the arabs hate it

[Notvacka]

You believe there is a creator who created mankind , all creatures and the whole universe , but you refuse the idea of a religion telling you what's right or wrong , good and evil, telling you the purpose of life and other things.

If God wished us to know these things for certain, then God would let us know for certain. Why would God use some human messenger? Why would you trust one holy book over another? I believe that God speaks to everybody who bothers to listen, not to chosen messengers only.

I tell you something, if we both agree that God created us , then God has to tell us why he created us ?

What has God told you lately? Did you even listen?

What are we doing here and what is the purpose of life ? He must send us a guidance to answer all those questions and to tell us what God wants from us .

What God wants, God gets. God did not create this world in order for it to be perfect, because then it would be perfect. There is something to learn from the world not being perfect.

If you have a new machine in your house and you need to know how to works , you bring the machine's catalog and start to read the instructions , the same with us. God created us , gave us our lives , mind , heart and body and sent us the catalog that we gotta need to live a happy life , satisfy God and carry out the purpose of life. A catalog answering all the questions , telling us the meaning of life and how we should live.

But life doesn't come with an instruction manual. Anybody can write a book and claim divine inspiration. If there is a purpose, and I do believe there is a purpose, then the machine malfunctioning must be part of that purpose. You figure it out.

I bow down glorifying God , the only one worthy glorification and worship. Then you feel you are very strong person and not afraid of anyone , no matter how poor you are , how weak you are , how old you are , your position in society cause Allah is with you , loves you and preparing paradise for you in the after life . You are not afraid of a manager who might fire you from work , you are not afraid of poverty , of tomorrow of anything and you never bow to anyone else .

This is wrong. So very wrong. Your submission does not glorify God. The very idea of glorifying God is kind of blaspehmous, implying that you could somehow add to God's glory. Rather, it diminishes God in your mind and the minds of others. Furthermore, you should know that God is with the manager who might fire you too. God is with you and your enemies.

God wants everybody to be saved too

As I said before, what God wants, God gets. You can't avoid fulfilling God's purpose. Salvation is inevitable.