Perspective on Christianity

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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ThinkOfOne
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Perspective on Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Your "free gift" has been set aside especially for you and contains your assurance of "salvation".

Trouble getting those old sin stains out? Your "free gift" will clean out the toughest set-in sin stains. "Though your sins are as scarlet", with the "blood of Christ" "they will be as white as snow".

Bad righteousness. No problem. With acceptance of your "free gift", the righteousness of Jesus Christ will be imputed to you. You heard right. The righteousness of Jesus Christ will be imputed to you. Your righteousness will "surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees". Guaranteed. You do absolutely nothing. We do all the work.

Tired of feeling guilty? Accept your "free gift" now and we'll include forgiveness at absolutely no extra charge. Think of it. Simply confess your sins as you commit them and you will never have to feel guilt again.

Wait there's more. With your "free gift" you'll also receive "eternal life". No more fretting about your "eternal destination".

Accept your "free gift" today and as a special bonus you'll also receive entrance into the "Kingdom". Reserve the place we've set aside especially for you.

Sound too good to be true? Billions of satisfied Christians cannot be wrong. Don't be the last person on your block to have one.

Be sure to ask about our "prosperity gospel" package.

Offer may not be valid for Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.
The above piece of satire highlights the absurdity of some of the beliefs held by many Christians.

The gospel preached by Jesus stands in stark contrast to the above.

As Jesus preached His gospel, He taught salvation through righteousness. No one who commits sin is truly righteous. Jesus calls His followers to make themselves truly righteous as He was truly righteous.

According to the gospel preached by Jesus:
Only the truly righteous receive “salvation”.
Only the truly righteous receive “eternal life”.
Only the truly righteous live in the “Kingdom of God”.
Only the truly righteous have been "born of the spirit" / "born from above".
Only the truly righteous receive the "spirit of truth".

There is no "total depravity of man" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "vicarious atonement for the forgiveness of sins" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "imputed righteousness" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "if you have faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ you will receive salvation, eternal life and life in the Kingdom" (or what have you) in the gospel preached by Jesus.

Yet many Christians call themselves "followers of Christ" when they don't follow the gospel preached by Jesus. Instead they believe and follow a gospel taught by those other than Christ. Christianity has the gospel taught by Paul and followers of Paul as its foundation.
Walker
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by Walker »

‘Tis a common POV, i.e., mundane.

The truly righteous do the right thing with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their mind. The right thing is the good thing, and compassion makes that evident when in doubt. Do that and you’ll be a Christian in action, no matter what’s rattling around in your noggin, or whether or not you know the backstory of Christianity, and no matter what labels folks are so eager to hang around your neck like a name-tag at a philosophy convention.
promethean75
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

Thank you Soren Walkergaard
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Walker wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:17 pm ‘Tis a common POV, i.e., mundane.

The truly righteous do the right thing with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their mind. The right thing is the good thing, and compassion makes that evident when in doubt. Do that and you’ll be a Christian in action, no matter what’s rattling around in your noggin, or whether or not you know the backstory of Christianity, and no matter what labels folks are so eager to hang around your neck like a name-tag at a philosophy convention.
Not sure how this is supposed to relate to the OP.

It's as if you've inexplicably decided to post a completely unrelated POV which IS "common, i.e., mundane."

Can you explain your intent?
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Harbal
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by Harbal »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:43 am
Walker wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:17 pm ‘Tis a common POV, i.e., mundane.

The truly righteous do the right thing with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their mind. The right thing is the good thing, and compassion makes that evident when in doubt. Do that and you’ll be a Christian in action, no matter what’s rattling around in your noggin, or whether or not you know the backstory of Christianity, and no matter what labels folks are so eager to hang around your neck like a name-tag at a philosophy convention.
Not sure how this is supposed to relate to the OP.

It's as if you've inexplicably decided to post a completely unrelated POV
Once you have become used to Walker, you will only bother to point it out when he does post something related to the topic.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:07 pm According to the gospel preached by Jesus:
Only the truly righteous receive “salvation”.
Only the truly righteous receive “eternal life”.
Only the truly righteous live in the “Kingdom of God”.
Only the truly righteous have been "born of the spirit" / "born from above".
Only the truly righteous receive the "spirit of truth".
All quite true. But what "righteousness" was He speaking of?

Paul explains: "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them mere rubbish, so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith..."

It's not personal perfection that is being demanded, not "making oneself good," so to speak: it's the forgiveness of one's unrighteousness, through the righteous sacrifice of Christ on one's behalf. That's the only actual "righteousness" a person can have.
There is no "total depravity of man" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
True: but "total depravity" is John Calvin's idea, so that's no loss. What is preached by Christ is the sinfulness of mankind: Luke 13:2-3 "And Jesus responded and said to them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans just because they have suffered this fate? No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish".
There is no "vicarious atonement for the forgiveness of sins" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
John 10:11 [Jesus said,] “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." That's vicarious. And it's an atonement. Sorry. Just wrong.
There is no "imputed righteousness" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
Matt. 6:33. "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be provided to you." And 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness far surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees (i.e., by far the most manifestly upright and moral religious teachers of Jesus' day), you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
There is no "if you have faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ you will receive salvation, eternal life and life in the Kingdom" (or what have you) in the gospel preached by Jesus.
John 3:13 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (and 16) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life."
Yet many Christians call themselves "followers of Christ" when they don't follow the gospel preached by Jesus.
See above. Who now is not "following the gospel preached by Jesus"?
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bahman
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by bahman »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:07 pm
Your "free gift" has been set aside especially for you and contains your assurance of "salvation".

Trouble getting those old sin stains out? Your "free gift" will clean out the toughest set-in sin stains. "Though your sins are as scarlet", with the "blood of Christ" "they will be as white as snow".

Bad righteousness. No problem. With acceptance of your "free gift", the righteousness of Jesus Christ will be imputed to you. You heard right. The righteousness of Jesus Christ will be imputed to you. Your righteousness will "surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees". Guaranteed. You do absolutely nothing. We do all the work.

Tired of feeling guilty? Accept your "free gift" now and we'll include forgiveness at absolutely no extra charge. Think of it. Simply confess your sins as you commit them and you will never have to feel guilt again.

Wait there's more. With your "free gift" you'll also receive "eternal life". No more fretting about your "eternal destination".

Accept your "free gift" today and as a special bonus you'll also receive entrance into the "Kingdom". Reserve the place we've set aside especially for you.

Sound too good to be true? Billions of satisfied Christians cannot be wrong. Don't be the last person on your block to have one.

Be sure to ask about our "prosperity gospel" package.

Offer may not be valid for Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.
Oh, sin and guilt! You are either wise enough or not to realize what is right and what is wrong. You are either strong enough to resist temptation or you are not. Either way, you are innocent. Sin and guilt only apply when you are wise enough and strong enough yet commit a wrong act. So only God could commit a sin.
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:07 pm The above piece of satire highlights the absurdity of some of the beliefs held by many Christians.

The gospel preached by Jesus stands in stark contrast to the above.

As Jesus preached His gospel, He taught salvation through righteousness. No one who commits sin is truly righteous. Jesus calls His followers to make themselves truly righteous as He was truly righteous.

According to the gospel preached by Jesus:
Only the truly righteous receive “salvation”.
Why do you need salvation if you are truly righteous?
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:07 pm Only the truly righteous receive “eternal life”.
What you are going to do with your eternal life? Every day looks like yesterday and your eternal life no matter where you are turns into a disaster!
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:07 pm Only the truly righteous live in the “Kingdom of God”.
Do you mean Heaven? What is wrong with Hell?
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:07 pm Only the truly righteous have been "born of the spirit" / "born from above".
What do you mean?
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:07 pm Only the truly righteous receive the "spirit of truth".
Truth is something that you need to find yourself. It is not an easy task and you cannot reach it without doubt. You of course need to believe to move on. So you cannot move on without belief and you are trapped without doubt!
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

bahman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:07 pm
You don't seem to have understood the OP. There is a distinction that needs to be made between the gospel preached by Jesus and the gospel taught by Paul and followers of Paul that serves as the foundation of "Christianity" (as the word is commonly understood).

Perhaps you need a better grounding in the gospel that serves as the foundation of Christianity in order for you to understand the salient points of the OP. See what follows. Let me know if you need further elaboration.

The cornerstone is the belief that "if you have faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ you will receive salvation, eternal life and life in the Kingdom" or some variation thereof. Holding such a belief is absolutely required. Perversely the effect of this is that, for all intents and purposes, EVERYONE who does no hold such a belief is effectively "damned to Hell". The problem for Christianity is that this flies on the face of the gospel preached by Jesus whom Christians claim to follow. Through the years Christians have made up a number concepts such as "the total depravity of man", "vicarious atonement for the forgiveness of sins" and "imputed righteousness" in an attempt to reconcile this. It's all rationalizations and sophistry. The resulting absurdity is the target of the quote box in the OP. What follows the quote box contrasts the gospel preached by Jesus with the gospel taught by Paul and followers of Paul that serves as the foundation of "Christianity".

But Christians believe those concepts anyway because they are desperately motivated to do so. As a result of this, it becomes effectively impossible for them to discuss their beliefs in a logical and reasonable manner. For an example see the post that can be found here:
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:01 pm
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:01 pm
Who are you responding to, here? Somehow you messed up your quote boxes, so we can't tell who should answer.
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bahman
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by bahman »

I don't understand what you are referring to but here are my comments.
ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:07 pm
You don't seem to have understood the OP. There is a distinction that needs to be made between the gospel preached by Jesus and the gospel taught by Paul and followers of Paul that serves as the foundation of "Christianity" (as the word is commonly understood).
Do you mean that Paul lied?
ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am Perhaps you need a better grounding in the gospel that serves as the foundation of Christianity in order for you to understand the salient points of the OP. See what follows. Let me know if you need further elaboration.
Ok.
ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am The cornerstone is the belief that "if you have faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ you will receive salvation, eternal life and life in the Kingdom" or some variation thereof. Holding such a belief is absolutely required.
Why is holding such a belief required? Why God should punish righteous people who do not believe so?
ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am Perversely the effect of this is that, for all intents and purposes, EVERYONE who does no hold such a belief is effectively "damned to Hell".
And I asked what is wrong with Hell? You could have more fun there.
ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am The problem for Christianity is that this flies on the face of the gospel preached by Jesus whom Christians claim to follow. Through the years Christians have made up a number concepts such as "the total depravity of man", "vicarious atonement for the forgiveness of sins" and "imputed righteousness" in an attempt to reconcile this. It's all rationalizations and sophistry. The resulting absurdity is the target of the quote box in the OP. What follows the quote box contrasts the gospel preached by Jesus with the gospel taught by Paul and followers of Paul that serves as the foundation of "Christianity".
So you mean that Christians made their own ideas in order to rationalize the scripture? Why did they do so?
ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am But Christians believe those concepts anyway because they are desperately motivated to do so. As a result of this, it becomes effectively impossible for them to discuss their beliefs in a logical and reasonable manner. For an example see the post that can be found here:
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:01 pm
Do you mean that IC is one of those Christians?
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:37 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am The cornerstone is the belief that "if you have faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ you will receive salvation, eternal life and life in the Kingdom" or some variation thereof. Holding such a belief is absolutely required.
Why is holding such a belief required? Why God should punish righteous people who do not believe so?
That you ask me questions such as this is what led me to think that "perhaps you need a better grounding in the gospel that serves as the foundation of Christianity in order for you to understand the salient points of the OP."

That said, presumably you recognize the absurdity of requiring such a belief and of punishing those who do not hold that belief. Why Paul and followers of Paul would make such a belief the cornerstone gets to the crux of the matter. In contrast, the cornerstone of the gospel preached by Jesus requires that one BE righteous to receive "eternal life" and live in the "Kingdom of God". Jesus came to "save" the unrighteous. Jesus taught that the unrighteous could make themselves righteous by "abid[ing] in His word". Meaning the words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel.

Evidently Paul did not believe Jesus much less follow and abide in His word. Read Romans to see the long string of excuses and rationalizations made by Paul for believing instead that no one can make themselves righteous. Thus Paul created his own gospel wherein the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus reconciles to God those who believe in it. It's a self-serving belief: "Not only don't you need to make yourselves righteous, you couldn't if you tried. Instead all you have to do is believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus." Such a belief attracts those who are self-centered and/or have simplistic views: "Hey, Paul's gospel is so much easier. Let's follow Paul's gospel". It's ridiculously absurd, yet many choose to believe it instead of the gospel preached by Jesus.

Read the post by IC that I directed to you earlier. It's all sophistry, e.g., taking verses out of context and claiming that they say something that the words don't actually say.
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bahman
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by bahman »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:55 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:37 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am The cornerstone is the belief that "if you have faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ you will receive salvation, eternal life and life in the Kingdom" or some variation thereof. Holding such a belief is absolutely required.
Why is holding such a belief required? Why God should punish righteous people who do not believe so?
That you ask me questions such as this is what led me to think that "perhaps you need a better grounding in the gospel that serves as the foundation of Christianity in order for you to understand the salient points of the OP."

That said, presumably you recognize the absurdity of requiring such a belief and of punishing those who do not hold that belief. Why Paul and followers of Paul would make such a belief the cornerstone gets to the crux of the matter. In contrast, the cornerstone of the gospel preached by Jesus requires that one BE righteous to receive "eternal life" and live in the "Kingdom of God". Jesus came to "save" the unrighteous. Jesus taught that the unrighteous could make themselves righteous by "abid[ing] in His word". Meaning the words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel.

Evidently Paul did not believe Jesus much less follow and abide in His word. Read Romans to see the long string of excuses and rationalizations made by Paul for believing instead that no one can make themselves righteous. Thus Paul created his own gospel wherein the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus reconciles to God those who believe in it. It's a self-serving belief: "Not only don't you need to make yourselves righteous, you couldn't if you tried. Instead all you have to do is believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus." Such a belief attracts those who are self-centered and/or have simplistic views: "Hey, Paul's gospel is so much easier. Let's follow Paul's gospel". It's ridiculously absurd, yet many choose to believe it instead of the gospel preached by Jesus.

Read the post by IC that I directed to you earlier. It's all sophistry, e.g., taking verses out of context and claiming that they say something that the words don't actually say.
Ok, that sounds good and dandy. Which Gospel is the words of Jesus then?
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

bahman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:01 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:55 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:37 pm
Why is holding such a belief required? Why God should punish righteous people who do not believe so?
That you ask me questions such as this is what led me to think that "perhaps you need a better grounding in the gospel that serves as the foundation of Christianity in order for you to understand the salient points of the OP."

That said, presumably you recognize the absurdity of requiring such a belief and of punishing those who do not hold that belief. Why Paul and followers of Paul would make such a belief the cornerstone gets to the crux of the matter. In contrast, the cornerstone of the gospel preached by Jesus requires that one BE righteous to receive "eternal life" and live in the "Kingdom of God". Jesus came to "save" the unrighteous. Jesus taught that the unrighteous could make themselves righteous by "abid[ing] in His word". Meaning the words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel.

Evidently Paul did not believe Jesus much less follow and abide in His word. Read Romans to see the long string of excuses and rationalizations made by Paul for believing instead that no one can make themselves righteous. Thus Paul created his own gospel wherein the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus reconciles to God those who believe in it. It's a self-serving belief: "Not only don't you need to make yourselves righteous, you couWhldn't if you tried. Instead all you have to do is believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus." Such a belief attracts those who are self-centered and/or have simplistic views: "Hey, Paul's gospel is so much easier. Let's follow Paul's gospel". It's ridiculously absurd, yet many choose to believe it instead of the gospel preached by Jesus.

Read the post by IC that I directed to you earlier. It's all sophistry, e.g., taking verses out of context and claiming that they say something that the words don't actually say.
Ok, that sounds good and dandy. Which Gospel is the words of Jesus then?
Which parts of what I've been writing do you agree are true and why?

Which parts of what I've been writing do you disagree and why?
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bahman
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by bahman »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:01 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:55 am

That you ask me questions such as this is what led me to think that "perhaps you need a better grounding in the gospel that serves as the foundation of Christianity in order for you to understand the salient points of the OP."

That said, presumably you recognize the absurdity of requiring such a belief and of punishing those who do not hold that belief. Why Paul and followers of Paul would make such a belief the cornerstone gets to the crux of the matter. In contrast, the cornerstone of the gospel preached by Jesus requires that one BE righteous to receive "eternal life" and live in the "Kingdom of God". Jesus came to "save" the unrighteous. Jesus taught that the unrighteous could make themselves righteous by "abid[ing] in His word". Meaning the words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel.

Evidently Paul did not believe Jesus much less follow and abide in His word. Read Romans to see the long string of excuses and rationalizations made by Paul for believing instead that no one can make themselves righteous. Thus Paul created his own gospel wherein the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus reconciles to God those who believe in it. It's a self-serving belief: "Not only don't you need to make yourselves righteous, you couWhldn't if you tried. Instead all you have to do is believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus." Such a belief attracts those who are self-centered and/or have simplistic views: "Hey, Paul's gospel is so much easier. Let's follow Paul's gospel". It's ridiculously absurd, yet many choose to believe it instead of the gospel preached by Jesus.

Read the post by IC that I directed to you earlier. It's all sophistry, e.g., taking verses out of context and claiming that they say something that the words don't actually say.
Ok, that sounds good and dandy. Which Gospel is the words of Jesus then?
Which parts of what I've been writing do you agree are true and why?

Which parts of what I've been writing do you disagree and why?
I agree with all of it. People need to try to find the truth and try to do things right accordingly. People however need a minimum of teaching too since what most people do wrong is the result of their ignorance. To find the truth you need belief and doubt together. Belief to move on and doubt to make sure that you do not get trapped in the wrong belief.

By the way, which Gospel is the words of Jesus?
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Perspective on Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

bahman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:30 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:01 am
Ok, that sounds good and dandy. Which Gospel is the words of Jesus then?
Which parts of what I've been writing do you agree are true and why?

Which parts of what I've been writing do you disagree and why?
I agree with all of it. People need to try to find the truth and try to do things right accordingly. People however need a minimum of teaching too since what most people do wrong is the result of their ignorance. To find the truth you need belief and doubt together. Belief to move on and doubt to make sure that you do not get trapped in the wrong belief.

By the way, which Gospel is the words of Jesus?
The words attributed to Jesus, as documented in the "four gospels", from the beginning of His ministry through His crucifixion. While there appears to have been some corruption introduced by the NT writers, the vast majority forms a coherent whole which makes it, by and large, easy to identify what's been corrupted.
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