religion and morality

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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iambiguous
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Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

Harbal wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:41 pm Some people believe in God, and wouldn't even consider doing otherwise, while others are determined to be atheists no matter what. But if you fall into neither of those categories, why even bother to come to a decision? We know the world, nature, the Universe functions according to consistent principles, or laws, what does it matter whether God put them in place or they came about some other way?
Well, most bother to come to a decision about these things because they have been indoctrinated as children to connect the dots between morality here and now and immortality and salvation there and then.

Or, as adults, re dasein, connecting these dots becomes important.

After all, only God is able to supply that crucial teleological component to those "consistent principles, or laws", right?

Birth. School. Work. Death.

Why? For what reason? Is there an essential meaning and purpose to be derived from them? Or is there just the brute facticity of an essentially meaningless and purposeless universe.

We live, we die. Going all the way back to the profound mystery of existence itself.

So, sure, why not God as the explanation?

Only back again as well to what you believe about God "in your head" and what you are able to demonstrate is in fact true about Him.
popeye1945
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Re: religion and morality

Post by popeye1945 »

Religion and morality are biological extensions, manifestations of human nature, religion did not create morality human nature did, so much for the magic man in the sky.
iambiguous
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Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:30 am Religion and morality are biological extensions, manifestations of human nature, religion did not create morality human nature did, so much for the magic man in the sky.
Now all we need is a context. A set of circumstances in which to explore all of the conflicting assessments of human nature.

Human nature and abortion.
Human nature and guns.
Human nature and homosexuality.
popeye1945
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: religion and morality

Post by popeye1945 »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:52 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:30 am Religion and morality are biological extensions, manifestations of human nature, religion did not create morality human nature did, so much for the magic man in the sky.
Now all we need is a context. A set of circumstances in which to explore all of the conflicting assessments of human nature.

Human nature and abortion.
Human nature and guns.
Human nature and homosexuality.

ambiguous,

Human creativity, as in its manifestations presently found in the world of objects.
iambiguous
Posts: 1200
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:28 am
iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:52 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:30 am Religion and morality are biological extensions, manifestations of human nature, religion did not create morality human nature did, so much for the magic man in the sky.
Now all we need is a context. A set of circumstances in which to explore all of the conflicting assessments of human nature.

Human nature and abortion.
Human nature and guns.
Human nature and homosexuality.

ambiguous,

Human creativity, as in its manifestations presently found in the world of objects.

Now all we need is a context. A set of circumstances in which to explore all of the conflicting assessments of human creativity.

Human creativity and abortion.
Human creativity and guns.
Human creativity and homosexuality.
popeye1945
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: religion and morality

Post by popeye1945 »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:54 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:28 am
iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:52 pm

Now all we need is a context. A set of circumstances in which to explore all of the conflicting assessments of human nature.

Human nature and abortion.
Human nature and guns.
Human nature and homosexuality.

ambiguous,

Human creativity, as in its manifestations presently found in the world of objects.

Now all we need is a context. A set of circumstances in which to explore all of the conflicting assessments of human creativity.

Human creativity and abortion.
Human creativity and guns.
Human creativity and homosexuality.
Whatever you find out there in the way of man-made systems, objects, institutions, machines, laws, norms. The institutions that express compassion, fear and hatred can be found in lesser or greater degrees where demographics indicate where the most wretched of cultures even within one country are. You looking for context, the world is your context local or global. You seem to wish to blow smoke over something that is rather straightforward.
iambiguous
Posts: 1200
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:31 pmWhatever you find out there in the way of man-made systems, objects, institutions, machines, laws, norms. The institutions that express compassion, fear and hatred can be found in lesser or greater degrees where demographics indicate where the most wretched of cultures even within one country are. You looking for context, the world is your context local or global. You seem to wish to blow smoke over something that is rather straightforward.
No, in my view, it's philosophers who take God and religion and morality up into the intellectual or spiritual clouds that are blowing smoke. Especially the pedants.

God and religion eventually come around to this:

1] morality on this side of the grave
2] immortality and salvation on the other side

And how each of us out in a particular world understood in a particular way interact with others in choosing [existentially] to connect the dots between them.

"Compassion, fear and hatred" given what set of circumstance? And how they are profoundly, problematically intertwined in vast and varied historical, cultural and interpersonal contexts.

Then the part I focus on in the OPs here:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

Don't want to go there? Then don't.

But, if you don't, I'd steer clear of my posts here.
popeye1945
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: religion and morality

Post by popeye1945 »

iambiguous wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:52 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:31 pmWhatever you find out there in the way of man-made systems, objects, institutions, machines, laws, norms. The institutions that express compassion, fear and hatred can be found in lesser or greater degrees where demographics indicate where the most wretched of cultures even within one country are. You looking for context, the world is your context local or global. You seem to wish to blow smoke over something that is rather straightforward.
No, in my view, it's philosophers who take God and religion and morality up into the intellectual or spiritual clouds that are blowing smoke. Especially the pedants.
God and religion eventually come around to this: 1] morality on this side of the grave
2] immortality and salvation on the other side
And how each of us out in a particular world understood in a particular way interact with others in choosing [existentially] to connect the dots between them.
"Compassion, fear and hatred" given what set of circumstance? And how they are profoundly, problematically intertwined in vast and varied historical, cultural and interpersonal contexts.

Then the part I focus on in the OPs here:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

Don't want to go there? Then don't.
But, if you don't, I'd steer clear of my posts here.
Well, first no one is going to accuse any of the desert religions of intellectual overdrive. Morality like every other meaning under the sun is the property of a conscious subject, any system of morality including those expressed by the desert religions of the west are biological extensions, are manifestations of human nature. You want to claim for religion the territory of sociology, it is already a science and has left behind what pasted for knowledge two thousand years ago. Compassion, compassion arises when one recognizes that the self in you is the self in all other creature, all capable of joys and sufferings, this is not gifted to us, it is the nature of our biology. Lastly you don't get to dictate where and how this dialogue is to proceed relative to your personal desires. This is a philosophical intellectual forum, not a church.
iambiguous
Posts: 1200
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:27 pmWell, first no one is going to accuse any of the desert religions of intellectual overdrive.
Sure, if you wish to construe religion "intellectually". But, again, most come to religion through indoctrination as children. And that indoctrination revolves basically around men and women across the globe and down through history confronting the reality of their own existential demise and grappling to subsume it in one or another afterlife. Most through God. Or through "the Gods".

But God must judge you fit for immortality and salvation. And how to do that but to base it on the behaviors you choose on this side of the grave.

How is that not religion in a nutshell? Aside from the politics of religion, i.e. those like Marx broaching religion as the opiate of the masses. And then politicians and governments around the globe and down through history taking advantage of that.

For example, does anyone here really believe that Donald Trump is a devout Christian? As Lennon suggested, "keep them doped with religion..."
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:27 pmMorality like every other meaning under the sun is the property of a conscious subject, any system of morality including those expressed by the desert religions of the west are biological extensions, are manifestations of human nature. You want to claim for religion the territory of sociology, it is already a science and has left behind what pasted for knowledge two thousand years ago.
Once again, you take all of this up into the intellectual/spiritual contraptions clouds.

Please note a moral issue that is important to you. Describe a context and then note what your own moral convictions are in regard to it. How is it all connected to religion and God? Where does human nature [genes] end and human nurture [memes] begin in regard to your own chosen behaviors?
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:27 pmCompassion, compassion arises when one recognizes that the self in you is the self in all other creature, all capable of joys and sufferings, this is not gifted to us, it is the nature of our biology.
Again, compassion pertaining to what set of circumstances? Compassion for the unborn or compassion for the pregnant woman? Compassion for the gun lovers or compassion for the gun haters? Compassion as a biological imperative or compassion derived from the existential parameters of your life awash in memetic variables?
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:27 pmLastly you don't get to dictate where and how this dialogue is to proceed relative to your personal desires. This is a philosophical intellectual forum, not a church.
Huh?

What am I dictating here?!

I created this thread. To discuss the existential relationship between religion and morality.

Now, no one here is obligated to click on the thread. Let alone to read what I post. Let alone to respond to it.

Again, you're not interested in exploring what consumes me in regard to religion and morality? Fine. Start your own thread in order to explore what interest you about it instead.
popeye1945
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: religion and morality

Post by popeye1945 »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:33 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:27 pmWell, first no one is going to accuse any of the desert religions of intellectual overdrive.
Sure, if you wish to construe religion "intellectually". But, again, most come to religion through indoctrination as children. And that indoctrination revolves basically around men and women across the globe and down through history confronting the reality of their own existential demise and grappling to subsume it in one or another afterlife. Most through God. Or through "the Gods".
But God must judge you fit for immortality and salvation. And how to do that but to base it on the behaviors you choose on this side of the grave.
How is that not religion in a nutshell? Aside from the politics of religion, i.e. those like Marx broaching religion as the opiate of the masses. And then politicians and governments around the globe and down through history taking advantage of that.
For example, does anyone here really believe that Donald Trump is a devout Christian? As Lennon suggested, "keep them doped with religion..."
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:27 pmMorality like every other meaning under the sun is the property of a conscious subject, any system of morality including those expressed by the desert religions of the west are biological extensions, are manifestations of human nature. You want to claim for religion the territory of sociology, it is already a science and has left behind what pasted for knowledge two thousand years ago.
Once again, you take all of this up into the intellectual/spiritual contraptions clouds.

Please note a moral issue that is important to you. Describe a context and then note what your own moral convictions are in regard to it. How is it all connected to religion and God? Where does human nature [genes] end and human nurture [memes] begin in regard to your own chosen behaviors?
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:27 pmCompassion, compassion arises when one recognizes that the self in you is the self in all other creature, all capable of joys and sufferings, this is not gifted to us, it is the nature of our biology.
Again, compassion pertaining to what set of circumstances? Compassion for the unborn or compassion for the pregnant woman? Compassion for the gun lovers or compassion for the gun haters? Compassion as a biological imperative or compassion derived from the existential parameters of your life awash in memetic variables?
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:27 pmLastly you don't get to dictate where and how this dialogue is to proceed relative to your personal desires. This is a philosophical intellectual forum, not a church.
Huh?

What am I dictating here?!

I created this thread. To discuss the existential relationship between religion and morality.

Now, no one here is obligated to click on the thread. Let alone to read what I post. Let alone to respond to it.

Again, you're not interested in exploring what consumes me in regard to religion and morality? Fine. Start your own thread in order to explore what interest you about it instead.
Do you believe that spirituality is something devoid of intellect? It takes the intellect to realize that the tree of knowledge is not that of life, that spirituality is about being and being in the world, the scent of the boutique, ideally the experience of the rapture of being alive.
As to your bringing attention to people being indoctrinated into these various desert religions I quite agree it is a tragedy, both on an individual level and for society at large, it is a means of dividing the in and the out-groups.
To be judged for immortality and salvation this again is a masochistic manifestation of human nature and not at all a healthy worldview. The works of some depressed sheep herder over two thousand years ago still speaking to a form of society he/she could never have imagined.

Compassion according to what circumstances the man says, the circumstances of the human condition a relational empathy which is to be found in our common biology. According to what circumstances, the circumstances of all life forms, for the essence of life is the same across the board only differing in the structures and forms adapt to life niches, what is it like to be a bat, its to experience, to suffer, to feel joy and to feel pain it is to be.


How is that not religion in a nut shell, religion is a psychological program, and as Steven Hawkings stated it is for those who are afraid of the dark. Religion is irrational in that it is based upon ancient fantasies, it is an orientation for individuals living in a time of almost total ignorance, religion is the power of fiction and as we all know, fantasy can trump reality every time. "You're not interested in exploring what consumes me in regard to religion and morality," the man says. I am interested in both religion and morality you just have an aversion to irrationalism as such this is not the ideal place for you to express your irrationality, very bad choice, location, location, location. "Please note a moral issue that is important to you", the man says. Well, I go by one simple principle, is this behaviour I am about to do going to increase the suffering of others or is it going to decrease suffering. You can apply this to any and every human circumstance. I get the feeling you do not wish to be challenged on your beliefs but that is the very nature of this site, if you post your going to be challenged, and that isn't rude that is the given expectation. Is there a point i missed that you would like an answer to?
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