God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:07 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:09 pm The ethical system of Jesus of Nazareth can and does stand without miracles as props.
Explain that.

If Jesus Christ was not God, why are people obligated to follow his moral precepts?

What confers that duty upon them?
Jesus taught by his life example and by appeal to reason.
Perfect... even of people today. No overblown stories needed.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:07 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:09 pm The ethical system of Jesus of Nazareth can and does stand without miracles as props.
Explain that.

If Jesus Christ was not God, why are people obligated to follow his moral precepts?

What confers that duty upon them?

Jesus taught by his life example and by appeal to reason.
Ah. So you think the morality of Jesus was taught by "reason"?

Give me the "reasons" why death to self or loving your enemies is a moral duty.
Belinda
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:28 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:07 pm
Explain that.

If Jesus Christ was not God, why are people obligated to follow his moral precepts?

What confers that duty upon them?

Jesus taught by his life example and by appeal to reason.
Ah. So you think the morality of Jesus was taught by "reason"?

Give me the "reasons" why death to self or loving your enemies is a moral duty.
Lies and distortions won't affect the main thrust of Judeo -Christianity which , unlike Islam, unlike your superstitious Bibliolatry, is based on a human life not a holy Book.

Biological human nature includes sympathy, that's to say, ordinary human kindness.
Some powerful men deny others opportunities to act with ordinary human kindness. The several and various means of snuffing ordinary human kindness include tub- thumping and distorting an old myth that served well in its time, and in a rapidly- changing scientific milieu needs re-interpreting.

NB Myth is not the same as moral code.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:46 am ...the main thrust of Judeo -Christianity...is based on a human life not a holy Book.
Show that. Show how that's the case.

I see you've now abandoned your position that "reason" will give us morality. And you've unilaterally chosen J-C morality over all other world moralities, interestingly. And now you say that "human life," not "reason" is the basis.

But I'm still waiting for some sort of explanation of why anybody should think you're right.
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RCSaunders
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:28 pm Ah. So you think the morality of Jesus was taught by "reason"?

Give me the "reasons" why death to self or loving your enemies is a moral duty.
Is, "death to self," a, "moral duty?" And what the hell is, "loving your enemy," holding has hand as saying nice things to the pervert raping your daughter?

It is idiotic and contradictory. If you were really, "dead to yourself," in terms of Christian belief, you would renounce your salvation, reject God and send your self to hell. But you won't, because you know it's nonsense--it's all about saving yourself, not killing it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:20 pm Is, "death to self," a, "moral duty?" And what the hell is, "loving your enemy"...
You should ask Jesus Christ. He spoke very plainly about both.

But if either "reason" or "human life" were the basis of His morality, you wouldn't need to ask the question, would you? You're presumably "alive," "human" and "reasonable."
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RCSaunders
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:15 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:20 pm Is, "death to self," a, "moral duty?" And what the hell is, "loving your enemy"...
You should ask Jesus Christ. He spoke very plainly about both.

But if either "reason" or "human life" were the basis of His morality, you wouldn't need to ask the question, would you? You're presumably "alive," "human" and "reasonable."
There is no, "basis," for morality. There is no such thing as, "morality," as you use the word. There is no law, no duty, and no one is born with any obligation to any other being.

I asked the question to discover how much you hated "reason," and, "individual human life," not because I wanted to understand your absurd view of a dictated morality.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:34 pm There is no, "basis," for morality.
You must live a lovely life...assuming you let what you believe to be true make a difference in your life, of course.
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RCSaunders
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:36 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:34 pm There is no, "basis," for morality.
You must live a lovely life...assuming you let what you believe to be true make a difference in your life, of course.
I do. Not only I, but all those I directly interact with. benefit from that life, because my life is not guided by irrational, "moral codes," but by reason and an understanding of the nature of every individual as a rational volitional being, not objects controlled by mystic evil forces and doomed to failure as in your view of morality.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 am ...my life is not guided by irrational, "moral codes," but by reason...
Let's see that.

Give me the "reasoning" for any moral principle or idea by which you are "guided."
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RCSaunders
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:07 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 am ...my life is not guided by irrational, "moral codes," but by reason...
Let's see that.

Give me the "reasoning" for any moral principle or idea by which you are "guided."
Is a defective memory or defective reading comprehension. I wrote:
There is no, "basis," for morality. There is no such thing as, "morality," as you use the word. There is no law, no duty, and no one is born with any obligation to any other being.
Did you forget I wrote that, or did you not understand it means I have no moral code. Why would I need to explain any so-called, "moral principles," I not only do not have but reject is superstitious nonsense.

All moral codes are arbitrary rules or laws with no specific objective or goal except some vague meaningless, "virtue," implying if one just obeys the rules they are a, "good person." without defining what a good person is. It's meaningless nonsense.

I do not believe you are interested in the principles by which I guide my life. I've explained them often enough and whenever I do, you just argue with them, and that's the only reason you are asking about them now. If you are really interested I've addressed them in several different articles I'd be glad to point you to, but I really don't think you are.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:34 am There is no, "basis," for morality. There is no such thing as, "morality," as you use the word. There is no law, no duty, and no one is born with any obligation to any other being.

and also:

..my life is not guided by irrational, "moral codes," but by reason...
Which is it? Is your life unguided with respect to morality, since "there is no such thing," or is it "guided by reason"?

You've said both. Which one is actually true?
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RCSaunders
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:18 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:34 am There is no, "basis," for morality. There is no such thing as, "morality," as you use the word. There is no law, no duty, and no one is born with any obligation to any other being.

and also:

..my life is not guided by irrational, "moral codes," but by reason...
Which is it? Is your life unguided with respect to morality, since "there is no such thing," or is it "guided by reason"?

You've said both. Which one is actually true?
They are the same thing.

Guided by moral codes means, "not guided by reason."
Guided by reason means, "not guided by moral codes."

It's like dry and wet. Dry means, "not wet." Wet means, "not dry."

They are not contradictory, they are complimentary ways of saying the same thing.
Belinda
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:46 am ...the main thrust of Judeo -Christianity...is based on a human life not a holy Book.
Show that. Show how that's the case.

I see you've now abandoned your position that "reason" will give us morality. And you've unilaterally chosen J-C morality over all other world moralities, interestingly. And now you say that "human life," not "reason" is the basis.

But I'm still waiting for some sort of explanation of why anybody should think you're right.
It is obvious that Jesus was a person not a book. Judeo -Christianity is the best religion for most people in Europe and America who are accustomed to believing more than ritually doing . Christianity is faith in a belief more than faith in rituals .

Christianity , based on a life experience, unlike faiths based on books , is moveable.
It's a mistake to claim Christianity is a dead faith; it needs to be interpreted more reasonably.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:35 pm Judeo -Christianity is the best religion for most people in Europe and America
Many problems with that.

One is that Judeo-Christianity is a descriptor of the cultural background for Western morality; it's not a "religion." You'll never meet a "Judeo-Christian." Rather, "Judeo-Christianity" describes a package of moral precepts handed down from the Jewish and Christian traditions, absent the religious character of either. In the West, people have long practiced Judeo-Christian moral suppositions and precepts, even while many have been agnostics and Atheists. So you need to understand the difference, I would say.

Second is that it's not sensible to think that it's 'the best" "for most people in Europe and America," but not "the best" for anybody else...particularly because neither Judaism nor Christianity is originally European or American, but also because if something is "the best" for one group, it's going to require some elaborate explaining as to why it's not suitable for people in Nigeria or Shanghai as well.

And one wonders what's "the best" in Peru or Honduras," if JC morality is only for Europeans and Americans. Certainly dividing the world into moral "zones" is not going to allow us to have any common basis for mediation of moral differences among cultures. One would wonder why Jewish morality is great in Israel, but no good in Jordan.

So I think that just doesn't make any sense, and fails to make sense on many levels.
Christianity , based on a life experience, unlike faiths based on books , is moveable.
"Based on life experience?" No actual Christian thinks it's that. And it's "based on" the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, as explained in the New Testament, so it's certainly involved with "books."

I have to say, B., and speaking charitably and as a Christian, you don't really know what you're talking about at all. You're not describing any Christianity I know.
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