God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Eodnhoj7
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God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

"All creation" contains within it a subset of "personal experience" thus contradicting being as driven by an impersonal force.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:24 pm "All creation" contains within it a subset of "personal experience" thus contradicting being as driven by an impersonal force.
Another way of pointing out the truth of what you say here is to say, "If there is a Creator, how would we imagine he must not possess a feature that we recognize as an advantage, and which we believe He conveyed to us?"

That is, if we are "persons," (entities with advanced consciousness, creativity, insight, experience, preferences, volition, etc.) then why would we imagine God must be something less than a "Person"? :shock:

And if He were, how could we imagine He had given us personhood?
Skip
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Skip »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:24 pm "All creation" contains within it a subset of "personal experience" thus contradicting being as driven by an impersonal force.
Who said anything about an impersonal force? All creation myths ascribe definite personalities and give names to the creator(s).
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skip wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:09 am All creation myths ascribe definite personalities and give names to the creator(s).
Not "all."

There are various mystics, like some Pantheists and Panentheists, who insist that the ultimate Being is ineffable, not personal and not even describable in human language. Instead, it's more like some unspeakable "force" than a conventional "God".
Dontaskme
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:48 am
Skip wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:09 am All creation myths ascribe definite personalities and give names to the creator(s).
Not "all."

There are various mystics, like some Pantheists and Panentheists, who insist that the ultimate Being is ineffable, not personal and not even describable in human language. Instead, it's more like some unspeakable "force" than a conventional "God".
The only ''enforcer'' of what you claim to know...is 'You'.

Nothing can be known of ''another knowing'' existing outside of the human hominoid brain.
Your/our ...''knowing'' ...is the only knowing available. 'You' being the one who claims to know.

This knowledge is all so obvious, clear and very simple really. Perhaps too simple for some academics.

The only ''knower'' here, that can possibly be known is you. The buck stops there. There is nothing beyond 'personal knowing' and that which appears to transcend it's personal knowing to reach some ultimate absolute knowing beyond yourself, is still happeing within you, so all that is ever reached for is an impenetrable impasse.

The belief there is a way to go beyond or transcend the impasse is delusional.

'Being' is ineffable to all creation simply because creation implies a creator. And to speak about a creator would require an act of uncreation. In other words, an act of uncreation is the futile attempt to unmake the making, which is as impossible as unseeing the seen.

Ultimately, you cannot know yourself. You are yourself. And that's ALL...you are.



.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:24 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:48 am
Skip wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:09 am All creation myths ascribe definite personalities and give names to the creator(s).
Not "all."

There are various mystics, like some Pantheists and Panentheists, who insist that the ultimate Being is ineffable, not personal and not even describable in human language. Instead, it's more like some unspeakable "force" than a conventional "God".
The only ''enforcer''...
Do you even read? :shock:

I did not use the word "enforcer," nor even suggest the concept.

Oy vey.
Skip
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Skip »

Skip wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:09 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:24 pm "All creation" contains within it a subset of "personal experience" thus contradicting being as driven by an impersonal force.
Who said anything about an impersonal force? All creation myths ascribe definite personalities and give names to the creator(s).
I stand corrected. Most creation myths ascribe personalities to their creators, thus establishing a second and opposing subset to the "impersonal force" hypothesis. Each claim regarding all creation may be equally right or wrong.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:30 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:24 pm "All creation" contains within it a subset of "personal experience" thus contradicting being as driven by an impersonal force.
Another way of pointing out the truth of what you say here is to say, "If there is a Creator, how would we imagine he must not possess a feature that we recognize as an advantage, and which we believe He conveyed to us?"

That is, if we are "persons," (entities with advanced consciousness, creativity, insight, experience, preferences, volition, etc.) then why would we imagine God must be something less than a "Person"? :shock:

And if He were, how could we imagine He had given us personhood?
Good point.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skip wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:15 pm
Skip wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:09 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:24 pm "All creation" contains within it a subset of "personal experience" thus contradicting being as driven by an impersonal force.
Who said anything about an impersonal force? All creation myths ascribe definite personalities and give names to the creator(s).
I stand corrected. Most creation myths ascribe personalities to their creators, thus establishing a second and opposing subset to the "impersonal force" hypothesis. Each claim regarding all creation may be equally right or wrong.
That isn't logical. Each claim that contradicts the others may be true or false in itself; but there's absolutely no way they're all "equally right or wrong."

Meanwhile, Deists, Pantheists, Panentheists like Spinoza, some Gnostics, Buddhists and a variety of others regard God as impersonal and as a "force." The fact that some people don't doesn't change that. So their view can still reasonably be subjected to examination.
Skip
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Skip »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:04 pm [S - Each claim regarding all creation may be equally right or wrong.]
That isn't logical. Each claim that contradicts the others may be true or false in itself; but there's absolutely no way they're all "equally right or wrong."
I really lucked out on education today.

Correction:
Each claim regarding the personality or impersonality of the Creator/Force has an equal chance of being right with every other claim. (+/-0)
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skip wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:40 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:04 pm [S - Each claim regarding all creation may be equally right or wrong.]
That isn't logical. Each claim that contradicts the others may be true or false in itself; but there's absolutely no way they're all "equally right or wrong."
I really lucked out on education today.

Correction:
Each claim regarding the personality or impersonality of the Creator/Force has an equal chance of being right with every other claim. (+/-0)
Ouch. Hate to niggle, but I can't pass that one up. Sorry: it isn't true either.

The claim, "God is a rainbow unicorn" and "God is a flying teapot" have very, very low chances of being right. The saying "God is everything" actually has a zero chance of being right.

But the statement, "God is the Supreme Being," (assuming God exists, of course) has such a high chance of being right that it's almost analytically true. In fact, it would be harder to imagine there being a God and Him being being something less than the Supreme Being than to imagine Him as being that.

So there are higher and lower probabilities of any account being right, and they're definitely not equal.
jayjacobus
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by jayjacobus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:47 pm
Skip wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:40 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:04 pm [S - Each claim regarding all creation may be equally right or wrong.]
That isn't logical. Each claim that contradicts the others may be true or false in itself; but there's absolutely no way they're all "equally right or wrong."
I really lucked out on education today.

Correction:
Each claim regarding the personality or impersonality of the Creator/Force has an equal chance of being right with every other claim. (+/-0)
Ouch. Hate to niggle, but I can't pass that one up. Sorry: it isn't true either.

The claim, "God is a rainbow unicorn" and "God is a flying teapot" have very, very low chances of being right. The saying "God is everything" actually has a zero chance of being right.

But the statement, "God is the Supreme Being," (assuming God exists, of course) has such a high chance of being right that it's almost analytically true. In fact, it would be harder to imagine there being a God and Him being being something less than the Supreme Being than to imagine Him as being that.

So there are higher and lower probabilities of any account being right, and they're definitely not equal.
In ancient cultures there were thought to be more than one god. If this is true, they are spirits; not actually gods. I think good and bad spirits makes more sense than an all knowing and powerful God.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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jayjacobus wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:02 pm I think good and bad spirits makes more sense than an all knowing and powerful God.
I don't see that that is the case at all.

Positing more than one "god" surely falls afoul of Occam's razor, of course: multiple "gods" are multiplying entities way beyond the number necessary to the explanation.

But even if that goes unnoted, you couldn't help but observe how convoluted and irrational the old legends about, say, the Greek or Roman "gods" were, in comparison to the straightforward postulate of one Creator. So no, I can't see that "good and bad spirits makes more sense."

You'll have to explain your reasoning to me, I suppose.
jayjacobus
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by jayjacobus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:08 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:02 pm I think good and bad spirits makes more sense than an all knowing and powerful God.
I don't see that that is the case at all.

Positing more than one "god" surely falls afoul of Occam's razor, of course: multiple "gods" are multiplying entities way beyond the number necessary to the explanation.

But even if that goes unnoted, you couldn't help but observe how convoluted and irrational the old legends about, say, the Greek or Roman "gods" were, in comparison to the straightforward postulate of one Creator. So no, I can't see that "good and bad spirits makes more sense."

You'll have to explain your reasoning to me, I suppose.
I don't think explaining anything to you is sensible.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

jayjacobus wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:08 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:02 pm I think good and bad spirits makes more sense than an all knowing and powerful God.
I don't see that that is the case at all.

Positing more than one "god" surely falls afoul of Occam's razor, of course: multiple "gods" are multiplying entities way beyond the number necessary to the explanation.

But even if that goes unnoted, you couldn't help but observe how convoluted and irrational the old legends about, say, the Greek or Roman "gods" were, in comparison to the straightforward postulate of one Creator. So no, I can't see that "good and bad spirits makes more sense."

You'll have to explain your reasoning to me, I suppose.
I don't think explaining anything to you is sensible.
:D Well, that seems unnecessarily hostile.

I was at least assuming you might have a reason. If I was wrong, I apologize.
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