Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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How is it that many theists perceive their all-powerful god's creation/manifestation as evil and dark and wrong, yet they fail to question the lack of logic in that limited human conclusion... and in the stories that spin off from that?

Can you offer a specific example?
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:00 pm
Lacewing wrote:How is it that many theists perceive their all-powerful god's creation/manifestation as evil and dark and wrong, yet they fail to question the lack of logic in that limited human conclusion... and in the stories that spin off from that?
Can you offer a specific example?
For example, this commonly-accepted contradiction:

> A loving and all-powerful god created everything...
> yet the world is full of "wrong", as well as evil, darkness, and people that are not of god.

That illogical cornerstone of belief enables people to create all kinds of fabrications for:
> What they believe or judge god supposedly is and isn't associated with.
> How they think the world "should be" instead.

Logic would suggest:
> An all-powerful creator would create all/everything based on divine awareness and sensibility, and of a magnitude beyond human comprehension.
> Such a god could surely manage/adjust the world/universe continually in whatever ways it "should be".
> In a vast universe, why would an all-powerful god cease creating and dote on one particular creation? What(?)...no upgraded models to create?
> If all the horrors we see in the world are the results from a god's creation, how would a loving god not be aware of and/or involved in every aspect of it continually?
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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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For example, this commonly-accepted contradiction:

> A loving and all-powerful god created everything...
> yet the world is full of "wrong", as well as evil, darkness, and people that are not of god.


Seems to me God wants free wills, not robots. The price for free wills is some of those free wills will do crap from time to time.

Not even God can overcome that and have an ordered, comprehensible Reality and freedom.


> An all-powerful creator would create all/everything based on divine awareness and sensibility, and of a magnitude beyond human comprehension.

I think we have that awareness and sensibility. Each of us has conscience. Bein' free wills, however, means we can ignore conscience and do crappy things.


> Such a god could surely manage/adjust the world/universe continually in whatever ways it "should be".

Some say He does just that. Me, as a deist, I think He's left us to our own devices.


> In a vast universe, why would an all-powerful god cease creating and dote on one particular creation? What(?)...no upgraded models to create?

I don't know of any religion that sez He isn't creating right now.


> If all the horrors we see in the world are the results from a god's creation, how would a loving god not be aware of and/or involved in every aspect of it continually?

Again, some folks say He's aware and intervenein'i. Me, I think our bein' free wills, His wanting us to be free wills, stays His hand.
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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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That illogical cornerstone of belief enables people to create all kinds of fabrications for:
> What they believe or judge god supposedly is and isn't associated with.
> How they think the world "should be" instead.


How is the atheist who pines for an unrealistic utopia, who actually believes such a thing is possible, any different?

Substitute Science for God and the result is the same.

The same narrow thinkin', the same fearfulness about those with a different viewpoint, the same hostilities, the same slavish devotion to whatever passes as gospel, the same elevation of men into seers and holy men and prophets.

No, these things are not confined to the religious.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:23 pm Logic would suggest:
> An all-powerful creator would create all/everything based on divine awareness and sensibility, and of a magnitude beyond human comprehension.
Clearly, we're all just speculating here but, yes, that is exactly what is taking place.
> Such a god could surely manage/adjust the world/universe continually in whatever ways it "should be".
Again, yes. And, again, that's what is taking place.
> In a vast universe, why would an all-powerful god cease creating and dote on one particular creation? What(?)...no upgraded models to create?
Sure, there can be upgrades to the "physiological" means by which God awakens new souls into existence (anywhere throughout the universe, btw). However, what exactly could God do that could possibly be greater than replicating herself to the fullest degree by conceiving her literal offspring (progeny/seeds) within herself?

In other words, God literally cannot do anything greater than what she has already done for each of us.

I mean, what more could God do for us that could top the fact that she has made us her equals by creating our minds and souls in her own image and imbued us with the same creative powers and eternal potential that she herself possesses?

The point is that when it comes to our ultimate and eternal form, there literally is no greater "upgrade" for God to perform on us.
> If all the horrors we see in the world are the results from a god's creation, how would a loving god not be aware of and/or involved in every aspect of it continually?
The creation of the clockwork-like workings of the universe is so perfectly done that, even though it is all created from the living fabric of God's very being, nevertheless, God's central consciousness (her "I Am-ness") does not need to be directly involved in every aspect of it "continually."
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Belinda
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:42 pm For example, this commonly-accepted contradiction:

> A loving and all-powerful god created everything...
> yet the world is full of "wrong", as well as evil, darkness, and people that are not of god.


Seems to me God wants free wills, not robots. The price for free wills is some of those free wills will do crap from time to time.

Not even God can overcome that and have an ordered, comprehensible Reality and freedom.


> An all-powerful creator would create all/everything based on divine awareness and sensibility, and of a magnitude beyond human comprehension.

I think we have that awareness and sensibility. Each of us has conscience. Bein' free wills, however, means we can ignore conscience and do crappy things.


> Such a god could surely manage/adjust the world/universe continually in whatever ways it "should be".

Some say He does just that. Me, as a deist, I think He's left us to our own devices.


> In a vast universe, why would an all-powerful god cease creating and dote on one particular creation? What(?)...no upgraded models to create?

I don't know of any religion that sez He isn't creating right now.


> If all the horrors we see in the world are the results from a god's creation, how would a loving god not be aware of and/or involved in every aspect of it continually?

Again, some folks say He's aware and intervenein'i. Me, I think our bein' free wills, His wanting us to be free wills, stays His hand.
Henry's usage of 'free will' is not that of the philosopher who would use 'free will' to mean absolute Freewill. However I will answer Henry's point of view, and usage of 'free will' to mean man's relative powers of decision and agency.

I agree with all of Henry's points including his answer to the problem of evil.Henry is right , that this is the deists' answer.

I don't know comparative religious doctrines, but I agree "I don't know of any religion that sez He isn't creating right now." Creation is a process through time.

"Again, some folks say He's aware and intervenein'i. Me, I think our bein' free wills, His wanting us to be free wills, stays His hand." (Henry) I agree, because I do not believe the Almighty intervenes in history, or in His own laws of nature.

If Henry's is an example of "the religious mindset" it is an okay mind set. But I don't think this is what the OP meant by "the religious mindset".
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Oakley »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pmWhat kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories...
Well, for starters, there is no religious mindset. There are instead billions of people over thousands of years in countless denominations, and a near infinite number of different ways one can relate to where ever one finds oneself in that vast cultural universe.
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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Belinda wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:11 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:42 pm For example, this commonly-accepted contradiction:

> A loving and all-powerful god created everything...
> yet the world is full of "wrong", as well as evil, darkness, and people that are not of god.


Seems to me God wants free wills, not robots. The price for free wills is some of those free wills will do crap from time to time.

Not even God can overcome that and have an ordered, comprehensible Reality and freedom.


> An all-powerful creator would create all/everything based on divine awareness and sensibility, and of a magnitude beyond human comprehension.

I think we have that awareness and sensibility. Each of us has conscience. Bein' free wills, however, means we can ignore conscience and do crappy things.


> Such a god could surely manage/adjust the world/universe continually in whatever ways it "should be".

Some say He does just that. Me, as a deist, I think He's left us to our own devices.


> In a vast universe, why would an all-powerful god cease creating and dote on one particular creation? What(?)...no upgraded models to create?

I don't know of any religion that sez He isn't creating right now.


> If all the horrors we see in the world are the results from a god's creation, how would a loving god not be aware of and/or involved in every aspect of it continually?

Again, some folks say He's aware and intervenein'i. Me, I think our bein' free wills, His wanting us to be free wills, stays His hand.
*Henry's usage of 'free will' is not that of the philosopher who would use 'free will' to mean absolute Freewill. However I will answer Henry's point of view, and usage of 'free will' to mean man's relative powers of decision and agency.

I agree with all of Henry's points including his answer to the problem of evil.Henry is right , that this is the deists' answer.

I don't know comparative religious doctrines, but I agree "I don't know of any religion that sez He isn't creating right now." Creation is a process through time.

"Again, some folks say He's aware and intervenein'i. Me, I think our bein' free wills, His wanting us to be free wills, stays His hand." (Henry) I agree, because I do not believe the Almighty intervenes in history, or in His own laws of nature.

If Henry's is an example of "the religious mindset" it is an okay mind set. But **I don't think this is what the OP meant by "the religious mindset".
*Actually, that's exactly what I mean. Libertarian agent causation is absolute free will. I can't imagine any interpretation of free will more absolute.

**You're right. Lace's focus has been, is, on the theist. i, however, am an inveterate buttinsky, so...
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Oakley wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:45 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pmWhat kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories...
Well, for starters, there is no religious mindset.
In your preferred view, perhaps.
Oakley wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:45 pm There are instead billions of people over thousands of years in countless denominations, and a near infinite number of different ways one can relate to where ever one finds oneself in that vast cultural universe.
There are also billions of people with all kinds of mindsets, and some who have a religious mindset. It's not an outrageous concept... except for some who might feel defensive, apparently... and probably because they have a religious mindset.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:42 pm Seems to me God wants free wills, not robots. The price for free wills is some of those free wills will do crap from time to time.

Not even God can overcome that and have an ordered, comprehensible Reality and freedom.
Then such a god is not all-powerful or very smart with the creation. "Doing crap" is easy to get over. The devastating horrors of insane levels of every hideous thing humans can come up with to destroy themselves and everything else would be a serious flaw of a loving and sensible creator. Good parents can do a better job with their children who have free wills. So, either such a god isn't very smart or capable, or such a god doesn't exist.
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:42 pm
Lacewing wrote:An all-powerful creator would create all/everything based on divine awareness and sensibility, and of a magnitude beyond human comprehension.
I think we have that awareness and sensibility.
:lol: :lol: :lol: omg... you're serious.
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:42 pm
Lacewing wrote:Such a god could surely manage/adjust the world/universe continually in whatever ways it "should be".
Some say He does just that.
So, they ignore the lack of logic for why a loving god would create and allow a world like this to go on and on. What management is there? Nothing. People living or dying or suffering or whatever... there's nobody at the imagined "helm".
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:42 pm Me, as a deist, I think He's left us to our own devices.
And how did that turn out?
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:42 pm
Lacewing wrote:In a vast universe, why would an all-powerful god cease creating and dote on one particular creation? What(?)...no upgraded models to create?
I don't know of any religion that sez He isn't creating right now.
Hmm... what might he be creating now?

It doesn't make sense, Henry. What is supposed to be the point (from your perspective)?
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Good parents can do a better job with their children who have free wills.

God isn't daddy; God is Creator.

Just cuz you want someone to fix your problems doesn't mean others want the same, or that God ought to. You're a free will, with a conscience, capable of self-direction and -development. God made you to be self-reliant.

Way past time to stop blamin' daddy for your bad choices.


why a loving god would create and allow a world like this to go on and on.

Obviously you have no appreciation for freedom and free will. You'd trade both off for safety and peace and comfy slippers.


And how did that turn out?

Fat lady ain't sung her last. Too early to issue a review. Seems to be tickin' along nicely though.


Hmm... what might he be creating now?

Hell if I know. A new Reality mebbe...a Garden Reality where folks like yourself would happy...a comfortable, peaceful Reality...mebbe, once He's done, He'll transplant your kind there...you can live like the humans in Vonnegut's Galapagos, free of higher thought and autonomy, just frolickin' in the ocean, ruttin' like dumb animals.


It doesn't make sense, Henry.

No, it doesn't make sense to you.


What is supposed to be the point (from your perspective)?

Of what? Reality as it is? A free will wouldn't ask such a stupid question.

Of Creating? To create, of course.

Why sculpt? Paint? Write? To profit? Most who create don't profit...they usually create at a loss. So: why do it? Because they can, they want to, and they do.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:38 am Good parents can do a better job with their children who have free wills.

God isn't daddy; God is Creator.

Just cuz you want someone to fix your problems doesn't mean others want the same, or that God ought to. You're a free will, with a conscience, capable of self-direction and -development. God made you to be self-reliant.

Way past time to stop blamin' daddy for your bad choices.
Why did you project all of this stupid crap?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:38 am why a loving god would create and allow a world like this to go on and on.

Obviously you have no appreciation for freedom and free will. You'd trade both off for safety and peace and comfy slippers.
Again, more of your stupid projection. And it's dishonest, Henry. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:38 am And how did that turn out?

Fat lady ain't sung her last. Too early to issue a review. Seems to be tickin' along nicely though.
2,000 years isn't enough time to evaluate?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:38 amHmm... what might he be creating now?

Hell if I know. A new Reality mebbe...a Garden Reality where folks like yourself would happy...a comfortable, peaceful Reality...mebbe, once He's done, He'll transplant your kind there...you can live like the humans in Vonnegut's Galapagos, free of higher thought and autonomy, just frolickin' in the ocean, ruttin' like dumb animals.
Ah... so he's creating all the time, but nobody knows what the fuck that might be. :lol: Real intelligent belief system.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:38 am It doesn't make sense, Henry.

No, it doesn't make sense to you.
How does it make sense to you? Simply because you can't fathom a manifestation without an individual creator... and you just ignore all the other stuff that doesn't add up? Yet you're so cocky in defending it! :lol:
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:38 am What is supposed to be the point (from your perspective)?

Of what? Reality as it is? A free will wouldn't ask such a stupid question.

Of Creating? To create, of course.

Why sculpt? Paint? Write? To profit? Most who create don't profit...they usually create at a loss. So: why do it? Because they can, they want to, and they do.
You've already lost the point of asking what's the point. You're too dense to have a reasonable conversation with.
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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Why did you project all of this stupid crap? Again, more of your stupid projection. And it's dishonest, Henry. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Not projection; just honest observation (with a touch of bile). I don't expect you to agree with it.


2,000 years isn't enough time to evaluate?

I'm no Christian. 2000 years is no benchmark for me. Half a million years is more accurate. And, in a half a million years we've come far.


How does it make sense to you? Simply because you can't fathom a manifestation without an individual creator

I was an atheist for most of my life. I tell you plainly, that was pure nonsense.

And: you can't fathom any concept of a Creator that isn't mired in theism. You're narrow-minded


you just ignore all the other stuff that doesn't add up?

If I were a theist, you might have a legit criticism there, but I'm not. The things you think don't add up are just childish nonsense to me.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

How could humans at that time be thought to have more awareness and understanding than humans thousands of years later?

What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?

Is it because the mystery of the old material can be mysteriously used/applied to explain the mystery of existence that humans want to feel they can know and/or have protection from?
That, Henry, is the original post by Lacewing.

There are various ways of appreciating ancient myths , ancient moral codes, and ancient sacred rituals.

I guess what Lacewing means is that we now have no need to confuse myths with history and science in general. If so, I agree.

I doubt if Lacewing meant that there is no wisdom at all in ancient myths, moral codes, and sacred rituals.

There is wisdom in ancient moral codes, myths, and sacred rituals that can aid peace and prosperity at this present time.

Henry, I liked what you wrote about deism . However I suspect your appreciation of ancient myths is zero. If you are a libertarian then you cannot also trust that The Sermon on the Mount is true and good.
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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Belinda wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:28 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

How could humans at that time be thought to have more awareness and understanding than humans thousands of years later?

What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?

Is it because the mystery of the old material can be mysteriously used/applied to explain the mystery of existence that humans want to feel they can know and/or have protection from?
That, Henry, is the original post by Lacewing.

There are various ways of appreciating ancient myths , ancient moral codes, and ancient sacred rituals.

I guess what Lacewing means is that we now have no need to confuse myths with history and science in general. If so, I agree.

I doubt if Lacewing meant that there is no wisdom at all in ancient myths, moral codes, and sacred rituals.

There is wisdom in ancient moral codes, myths, and sacred rituals that can aid peace and prosperity at this present time.

Henry, I liked what you wrote about deism . However *I suspect your appreciation of ancient myths is zero. **If you are a libertarian then you cannot also trust that The Sermon on the Mount is true and good.
*If you review my posts early on in the thread you can see for yourself my appreciation or lack of.

**Why?
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