I am who I am

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, ...
Since you are human you are claiming you have no certain knowledge, and from what you've written, I'd say you've proved it.
Yeah yeah you're one of those people who can't handle the lack of absolute certainty.
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RCSaunders
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Re: I am who I am

Post by RCSaunders »

Atla wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:22 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, ...
Since you are human you are claiming you have no certain knowledge, and from what you've written, I'd say you've proved it.
Yeah yeah you're one of those people who can't handle the lack of absolute certainty.
Are you certain about that?
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:31 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:22 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Since you are human you are claiming you have no certain knowledge, and from what you've written, I'd say you've proved it.
Yeah yeah you're one of those people who can't handle the lack of absolute certainty.
Are you certain about that?
Fairly certain, you made a whole thread about it.
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RCSaunders
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Re: I am who I am

Post by RCSaunders »

Atla wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:34 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:31 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:22 pm
Yeah yeah you're one of those people who can't handle the lack of absolute certainty.
Are you certain about that?
Fairly certain, you made a whole thread about it.
But that, according to you, is impossible.

Didn't you say, "Certain knowledge is impossible?"
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:35 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:34 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:31 pm
Are you certain about that?
Fairly certain, you made a whole thread about it.
But that, according to you, is impossible.

Didn't you say, "Certain knowledge is impossible?"
That's the argument expected of a kid who can't distinguish between absolute certainty and pseudo (relative) certainty. Even Veritas had you in your topic. :)
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RCSaunders
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Re: I am who I am

Post by RCSaunders »

Atla wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:45 pm That's the argument expected of a kid ...
I certainly don't mind being called a kid. Hasn't happened much since I turned eighty, so thanks for that.
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:06 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:45 pm That's the argument expected of a kid ...
I certainly don't mind being called a kid. Hasn't happened much since I turned eighty, so thanks for that.
I know, you're welcome :)
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, ...
Since you are human you are claiming you have no certain knowledge, and from what you've written, I'd say you've proved it.
In order to express knowledge one has to use language - which is nothing but verbally expressed conceptual thought.

Conceptual thought is the only tool we have at our disposal to describe and interpret whatever is being directly experienced.
It is a tool that only works within the realm of relativity (one could even go one step further and state: Language/conceptual thought is relativity itself).

Attempting to use a tool which only works within the relative, in order to express absolute truth, will as such never be successful - no matter how much one might believe that thought can do such a thing.
Its simply a matter of finding out what kind of tool language/conceptual thought actually is, to understand it's powers, but also it's limitations (you wouldn't attempt to use a hammer to change a lightbulb, would you?)
Age
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Age »

AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, ...
Since you are human you are claiming you have no certain knowledge, and from what you've written, I'd say you've proved it.
In order to express knowledge one has to use language - which is nothing but verbally expressed conceptual thought.

Conceptual thought is the only tool we have at our disposal to describe and interpret whatever is being directly experienced.
It is a tool that only works within the realm of relativity (one could even go one step further and state: Language/conceptual thought is relativity itself).

Attempting to use a tool which only works within the relative, in order to express absolute truth, will as such never be successful - no matter how much one might believe that thought can do such a thing.
Here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of expressing something, through language, as though it is an absolute truth.

Saying something WILL NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL is attempting to express an ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

If what what you are doing here is attempting to use a tool, which only works within the relative, in order to express absolute truth, then this will NEVER be successful. In orders if you are attempting to use the tool of language, and words, to express what you are here, then this WILL NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL. Therefore, what you just attempted to CLAIM IS TRUE, will NEVER be true.

Therefore what you CLAIMED here could NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL, may, IN FACT, BE SUCCESSFUL, after all.

As I pointed out earlier, EVERY time someone CLAIMS that something like, absolute truth CAN NOT be known, NOR could be expressed, also HAVE TO ADMIT that their CLAIM is NOT true AT ALL.

Would you ADMIT this?
AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 am Its simply a matter of finding out what kind of tool language/conceptual thought actually is, to understand it's powers, but also it's limitations (you wouldn't attempt to use a hammer to change a lightbulb, would you?)
This analogy does NOT work.

What kind of tool language/conceptual thought ACTUALLY IS, is one to:

WORK OUT and UNDERSTAND the 'world'/Universe that one finds "them self" in.

Control the behavior of the body that one finds "them self" in. And,

Express and share the feelings of, and within the, body so that that one is HEARD by "others" so that they can and will recognize and accept who One IS and who 'they' ARE.
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:47 am Here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of expressing something, through language, as though it is an absolute truth.

Saying something WILL NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL is attempting to express an ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

If what what you are doing here is attempting to use a tool, which only works within the relative, in order to express absolute truth, then this will NEVER be successful. In orders if you are attempting to use the tool of language, and words, to express what you are here, then this WILL NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL. Therefore, what you just attempted to CLAIM IS TRUE, will NEVER be true.

Therefore what you CLAIMED here could NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL, may, IN FACT, BE SUCCESSFUL, after all.

As I pointed out earlier, EVERY time someone CLAIMS that something like, absolute truth CAN NOT be known, NOR could be expressed, also HAVE TO ADMIT that their CLAIM is NOT true AT ALL.

Would you ADMIT this?
I admit that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:47 am This analogy does NOT work.

What kind of tool language/conceptual thought ACTUALLY IS, is one to:

WORK OUT and UNDERSTAND the 'world'/Universe that one finds "them self" in.

Control the behavior of the body that one finds "them self" in. And,

Express and share the feelings of, and within the, body so that that one is HEARD by "others" so that they can and will recognize and accept who One IS and who 'they' ARE.
I wouldn't have expected you to understand the analogy.
Age
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Age »

AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:22 am
Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:47 am Here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of expressing something, through language, as though it is an absolute truth.

Saying something WILL NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL is attempting to express an ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

If what what you are doing here is attempting to use a tool, which only works within the relative, in order to express absolute truth, then this will NEVER be successful. In orders if you are attempting to use the tool of language, and words, to express what you are here, then this WILL NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL. Therefore, what you just attempted to CLAIM IS TRUE, will NEVER be true.

Therefore what you CLAIMED here could NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL, may, IN FACT, BE SUCCESSFUL, after all.

As I pointed out earlier, EVERY time someone CLAIMS that something like, absolute truth CAN NOT be known, NOR could be expressed, also HAVE TO ADMIT that their CLAIM is NOT true AT ALL.

Would you ADMIT this?
I admit that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Well just try to refute what i have said, then we can SHOW who here REALLY KNOWS what they are talking about.

'you', "alexw", here have talked about "Attempting to use conceptual thought in order to express absolute truth will never be successful".

So, either what you said and talked about here is true, or it is NOT.

If what you talked about here is true, then it could NOT be refuted. And, if that truth could NOT be refuted, then, to some, it is an absolute truth. This Truth can NOT be refuted.

But if what you said and talked about here is NOT true. Then that just speaks for itself. YOUR CLAIM is just plain old UNTRUE.

So, is what you said and talked about here irrefutably true, or NOT.

If what you said and talked about here is irrefutably true, then GREAT.

But if what you said and talked about here is NOT irrefutably true, then WHY NOT? How can what you said and talked about here be refuted?
AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:22 am
Age wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:47 am This analogy does NOT work.

What kind of tool language/conceptual thought ACTUALLY IS, is one to:

WORK OUT and UNDERSTAND the 'world'/Universe that one finds "them self" in.

Control the behavior of the body that one finds "them self" in. And,

Express and share the feelings of, and within the, body so that that one is HEARD by "others" so that they can and will recognize and accept who One IS and who 'they' ARE.
I wouldn't have expected you to understand the analogy.
OF COURSE NOT. 'you' BELIEVE that I have NO idea what I am talking about, correct?

And, if I do NOT even have ANY idea about what I talk about, then SURELY it follows, that I would have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA AT ALL about what you talk about, correct?
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RCSaunders
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Re: I am who I am

Post by RCSaunders »

AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, ...
Since you are human you are claiming you have no certain knowledge, and from what you've written, I'd say you've proved it.
In order to express knowledge one has to use language
It's a little more fundamental than that. Before you can, "express," knowledge, you have to have some. That is the primary purpose of language.
AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 am Conceptual thought is the only tool we have at our disposal to describe and interpret whatever is being directly experienced.
That's close. Language is a method, and concepts are building blocks of language, and concept are how all diretly perceived existents (entities) are identified.
AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 am It is a tool that only works within the realm of relativity (one could even go one step further and state: Language/conceptual thought is relativity itself).
Here you lost the thread. Nothing is just, "relative." What's relative to what? You have used the right words up to now, but I really don't think you know what a concept is.
AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 am Its simply a matter of finding out what kind of tool language/conceptual thought actually is, to understand it's powers, ...
Yes! That's exactly what you need to do. Here's where to start:

Epistemology, Concepts

Epistemology, Propositions
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:16 pm It's a little more fundamental than that. Before you can, "express," knowledge, you have to have some. That is the primary purpose of language.
Sure - so please tell me: What comes first, knowledge or language?

As I see it, they arise together - you learn a word and with it, its meaning, the concept itself.
But if you think one can have conceptual knowledge before even being able to put it into language, I would be very interested to hear how that would be possible.
Last edited by AlexW on Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:16 pm Here you lost the thread. Nothing is just, "relative." What's relative to what? You have used the right words up to now, but I really don't think you know what a concept is
Sorry if I am not always using the "right words", but I try to make myself understood as best as I can (and pardon my "non-philosophical jargon").

What's relative to what?
Every thing is relative to or even stands in opposition to every other thing - its the same with expressions and statements.
Whatever can be expressed using language is in some way related to each other, every concept identified relates to all other concepts.
Some concepts seem to have a closer relation than others (they oppose each other - for example left opposes right, up opposes down - they not only oppose each other but they also create and support each other - there is no right without a left etc...) - there can be no "you" without "me" etc etc...

Yet, if one investigates direct experience (whatever is experienced before conceptual interpretations arise) one will find no such relations, no oppositions or any other kind of "relativity" at all - direct experience is "absolute", it is undivided, not made of separate things and as such not conceptual at all.

That's why I said: Language/conceptual thought is relativity itself

I am sure that didn't follow the epistemological guidelines on how to "explain the nature of knowledge and identify the principles by which knowledge must be gained, held, and used if it is to be true knowledge", but maybe you still get the drift of what I am attempting to explain?
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RCSaunders
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Re: I am who I am

Post by RCSaunders »

AlexW wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:32 am Sure - so please tell me: What comes first, knowledge or language?

As I see it, they arise together - you learn a word and with it, its meaning, the concept itself.
I think that is quite correct. I see no problem with that at all.

There is a reason I would not call a concept, all by itself, "knowledge," on epistemological grounds, but essentially, if you know what the definition of a concept is, it is knowledge. When you learn what a concept means you have knowledge.
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