I am who I am

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:43 am
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:37 am Oh yeah, we can't ever be absolutely sure of the correctness of any worldview, not even of the direct experience based nondualism. Yes it's almost certainly correct and can't be falsified. But claiming that direct experience gives certainty is just another form of self-serving narcissistic oneupmanship.
Direct experience is an oxymoron.

Certain knowledge is 'knowledge-by-identity' for which the knower becomes one with its object. There is no other form of certain knowledge. I think even Aristotle says this somewhere. It is a fact of epistemology. Thus meditation takes us beyond experience to knowledge and truth.

A poem on youtube by Bernardo Kastrup begins 'All experiences are untrue'. This is what he means.

Basic stuff.
What are you talking about? Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, that's basic stuff. It's a delusion that one can go beyond experience, because it doesn't have a beyond. Certain knowledge is a belief for psychologically weak, escapist narcissists, and no amount of meditation changes that.
PeteJ
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Re: I am who I am

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm What are you talking about? Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, that's basic stuff. It's a delusion that one can go beyond experience, because it doesn't have a beyond. Certain knowledge is a belief for psychologically weak, escapist narcissists, and no amount of meditation changes that.
I'd suggest a study of epistemology. It's no use just waiving your arms around.
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:15 pm
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm What are you talking about? Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, that's basic stuff. It's a delusion that one can go beyond experience, because it doesn't have a beyond. Certain knowledge is a belief for psychologically weak, escapist narcissists, and no amount of meditation changes that.
I'd suggest a study of epistemology. It's no use just waiving your arms around.
Seems to me that you are the one waving your arms around, ignoring epistemology. It's a basic fact of epistemology that certain knowledge is, as far as we can tell, impossible. The only thing we can be certain of, is that there is something rather than absolutely nothing. Everything else can be doubted.

But if you can show that certain knowledge is possible, then do so.
PeteJ
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Re: I am who I am

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:25 pmBut if you can show that certain knowledge is possible, then do so.
Annoyingly I can't find the quote, but I believe Aristotle notes somewhere that certain knowledge is identical with its object.

This would be my view. It the collapse of the knower-known distinction that allows certain knowledge. This might be called 'knowledge-by-identity' or knowledge-by being'. Such knowledge cannot be doubted, as Descartes realised.

This is why the mystics are always so confident. Your current view must be that they're not certain that what they say is true, But epistemology cannot prove this since they claim knowledge-by-identity.

I'd agree that all others forms of knowledge are suspect.
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:10 pm
Atla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:25 pmBut if you can show that certain knowledge is possible, then do so.
Annoyingly I can't find the quote, but I believe Aristotle notes somewhere that certain knowledge is identical with its object.

This would be my view. It the collapse of the knower-known distinction that allows certain knowledge. This might be called 'knowledge-by-identity' or knowledge-by being'. Such knowledge cannot be doubted, as Descartes realised.

This is why the mystics are always so confident. Your current view must be that they're not certain that what they say is true, But epistemology cannot prove this since they claim knowledge-by-identity.

I'd agree that all others forms of knowledge are suspect.
It's pretty basic stuff that the collapse of the knower-known distinction has nothing to do with certain knowledge.

There is no longer the 'you' / the 'subject', that knows 'things', 'objects'. This dualistic illusion is transcended, and it is realized that it's all one and the same process really, and that this process is one with everything else.

But 'you' are still stuck with what's going on inside your head. 'You' have identity with non-certain knowledge.
PeteJ
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Re: I am who I am

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:54 pm It's pretty basic stuff that the collapse of the knower-known distinction has nothing to do with certain knowledge.

There is no longer the 'you' / the 'subject', that knows 'things', 'objects'. This dualistic illusion is transcended, and it is realized that it's all one and the same process really, and that this process is one with everything else.

But 'you' are still stuck with what's going on inside your head. 'You' have identity with non-certain knowledge.

Ah. I see. You assume that what is 'inside' your head is not the world. My view is not naively-real in this way.

To understand what I'm saying you would have to understand something about mysticism, and I'm sure you don't want go there.

So let us leave it here. I'm quite confident you're not going to be able to falsify the Perennial philosophy and its knowladge claims,
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:13 pm
Atla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:54 pm It's pretty basic stuff that the collapse of the knower-known distinction has nothing to do with certain knowledge.

There is no longer the 'you' / the 'subject', that knows 'things', 'objects'. This dualistic illusion is transcended, and it is realized that it's all one and the same process really, and that this process is one with everything else.

But 'you' are still stuck with what's going on inside your head. 'You' have identity with non-certain knowledge.

Ah. I see. You assume that what is 'inside' your head is not the world. My view is not naively-real in this way.

To understand what I'm saying you would have to understand something about mysticism, and I'm sure you don't want go there.

So let us leave it here. I'm quite confident you're not going to be able to falsify the Perennial philosophy and its knowladge claims,
What is inside your head is a model of the world (representational consciousness), while also being one and the same with the world (the Absolute). Nondualism is correct, you just seem to be stuck in a popular but wrong version of it, which was and is promoted by psychologically weak, escapist narcissist mystics. I'm after the real deal.
PeteJ
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Re: I am who I am

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:28 pm What is inside your head is a model of the world (representational consciousness), while also being one and the same with the world (the Absolute). Nondualism is correct, you just seem to be stuck in a popular but wrong version of it, which was and is promoted by psychologically weak, escapist narcissist mystics. I'm after the real deal.
I have no idea why you reach this conclusion or why you should insult me so. But hey ho.
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:58 am
Atla wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:28 pm What is inside your head is a model of the world (representational consciousness), while also being one and the same with the world (the Absolute). Nondualism is correct, you just seem to be stuck in a popular but wrong version of it, which was and is promoted by psychologically weak, escapist narcissist mystics. I'm after the real deal.
I have no idea why you reach this conclusion or why you should insult me so. But hey ho.
Yeah yeah you still haven't demonstrated any certain knowledge, even though you have superior epistemology.
uwot
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Re: I am who I am

Post by uwot »

seeds wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:17 pm
uwot wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:25 am
seeds wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:55 pm
Image

I see two grizzly bears high-fiving each other as they rip open the chest of a hunter who tried to shoot them, and then use his blood to paw-paint on the walls of a cave. :D

What do you see?
_______
What are you on seeds? Anyone can see it's two garden gnomes Morris dancing.
How dare you insult my belief? I spit on your Morris dancing garden gnomes. You are an infidel born of pigs.

However, I do admit that I may have been experiencing the delusion inducing effects of drinking half a bottle of Ensure when I saw the grizzly bears (I’ve been trying to cut back).
_______
Seeds me old mucker, I get a notification that you have edited the above. I stare at it for a bit - Nope, it's still two Morris dancing garden gnomes. Why gives?
seeds
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Re: I am who I am

Post by seeds »

uwot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:07 am
seeds wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:17 pm
uwot wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:25 am
What are you on seeds? Anyone can see it's two garden gnomes Morris dancing.
How dare you insult my belief? I spit on your Morris dancing garden gnomes. You are an infidel born of pigs.

However, I do admit that I may have been experiencing the delusion inducing effects of drinking half a bottle of Ensure when I saw the grizzly bears (I’ve been trying to cut back).
_______
Seeds me old mucker, I get a notification that you have edited the above. I stare at it for a bit - Nope, it's still two Morris dancing garden gnomes. Why gives?
Sometimes I review threads, and with this one, I saw that the Rorschach image...

Image

...was missing, so I replaced it with another one.

And, no, it's still two grizzly bears paw-painting on a cave wall with a hunter's blood.

Clearly, Rorschach would think you are crazy if you see garden gnomes. Perhaps we should explore your "issues" before you go off the deep end?
_______
Dubious
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Dubious »

If I had a dirty mind I could probably figure it out! :twisted:

The best I can do right now is to say it's a decomposing butterfly.
gaffo
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Re: I am who I am

Post by gaffo »

bahman wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:33 pm Everybody is himself/herself so they can say I am who I am. Interestingly this phrase doesn't give more than any obvious information. I am wondering why people consider this as a definition of God.
tetragrammaton

with an understanding of "knowing the true name" means you have power over. so YHWH refused to offer His True Name to Abraham when he asked it - knowing Abrham would have power over God had he known God True name. (Genesis is a Judaic work and true name theology is apt - as it is in the gospel of Mark where the "Legion say they know the True Name of Jesus - and Jesus commands they be silent - lest they say his name and have power over him).

"I am that I am" is a just a wishy washy way of saying - "I'm not going to give you my mane so you can overthrow me bubba.

i.e. YHWH is just saying "I'm the fucking BOSS - Abraham/chump - as long as i dont tell you my true name...........
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bahman
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Re: I am who I am

Post by bahman »

gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:45 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:33 pm Everybody is himself/herself so they can say I am who I am. Interestingly this phrase doesn't give more than any obvious information. I am wondering why people consider this as a definition of God.
tetragrammaton

with an understanding of "knowing the true name" means you have power over. so YHWH refused to offer His True Name to Abraham when he asked it - knowing Abrham would have power over God had he known God True name. (Genesis is a Judaic work and true name theology is apt - as it is in the gospel of Mark where the "Legion say they know the True Name of Jesus - and Jesus commands they be silent - lest they say his name and have power over him).

"I am that I am" is a just a wishy washy way of saying - "I'm not going to give you my mane so you can overthrow me bubba.

i.e. YHWH is just saying "I'm the fucking BOSS - Abraham/chump - as long as i dont tell you my true name...........
I see.
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RCSaunders
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Re: I am who I am

Post by RCSaunders »

Atla wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, ...
Since you are human you are claiming you have no certain knowledge, and from what you've written, I'd say you've proved it.
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