Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Belinda
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:25 pm
seeds wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:55 pm
seeds wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:04 am Firstly, just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you are referring to when you say "celestial spheres"?
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:07 am If you look up Sublunary, and celestial spheres, and superlunary you will find that the clear division in the image between the world beneath the moon, literally sublunary, and the celestial realm is made clear and obvious.

Here it is in BRIEF. Don't criticise me for fine details: i am covering an epoch years in about 400 words.

From the time of Aristotle it was thought that the world above, ran on a different system of celestial physics, to the more earthly one. The idea immediately answered why the moon stayed in the sky rather than fell to earth as it was literally bouyed up with crystal spheres, as were the rest of the heavenly bodies. You can actually see the planets following their tracks in the spheres in the image....
If you look carefully at the Flammarion image, you can easily see that the earth, and the moon, and the sun, and the stars (and, presumably, the rest of the planets), are all represented by what resides on the "inside" of the bubble of reality that the dude is sticking his head outside of.

Whereas, on the other hand, the random and freaky looking scene on the outside of the bubble, bears very little resemblance to what's on the inside of the bubble.

I get it that you think that the stratified-looking stuff on the outside of the bubble might be a representation of Aristotle's concentric spheres that were alleged to support and separate the celestial bodies back in days of yore (as is depicted in the following image),...

Image

...however (and again), the sun, and the moon, and the stars (and the planets, though not pictured), along with Aristotle's "celestial spheres" that separate them, are already accounted for on the interior of the bubble depicted in the Flammarion engraving...

Image

Therefore, whatever it is that the dude is seeing on the outside of the bubble, it seems to exist above and outside of what you (and Aristotle) are calling the "sublunary" and "superlunary" realms.
_______
You are dead wrong.
This whole thing is off topic.
I have no interest in taking it further.
What is most interesting about the outside of the bubble is that stuff is arranged in order. The details of the order is irrelevant.It is true that the details outside the bubble are repeated inside the bubble but what matters is that the details are ordered in a sequence or hierarchy outside the bubble . The wheels outside the bubble are a most important symbol of change which is ordered according to reason, unlike this terrible evil world we inhabit.
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Sculptor
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:23 am The wheels outside the bubble are a most important symbol of change which is ordered according to reason, unlike this terrible evil world we inhabit.
Explain?
Belinda
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:10 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:23 am The wheels outside the bubble are a most important symbol of change which is ordered according to reason, unlike this terrible evil world we inhabit.
Explain?
This world is both evil and ultimately incomprehensible. The picture shows a state of being that is ordered, comprehensible, and fair. I don't claim to be au fait with Renaissance symbolism however to me wheels and cogs keep things nicely ticking over.

I cannot possibly discuss mystical claims about how to access the deep order if in fact there be such order about which I must remain agnostic.
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Sculptor
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Sculptor »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:13 am
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:10 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:23 am The wheels outside the bubble are a most important symbol of change which is ordered according to reason, unlike this terrible evil world we inhabit.
Explain?
This world is both evil and ultimately incomprehensible. The picture shows a state of being that is ordered, comprehensible, and fair. I don't claim to be au fait with Renaissance symbolism however to me wheels and cogs keep things nicely ticking over.

I cannot possibly discuss mystical claims about how to access the deep order if in fact there be such order about which I must remain agnostic.
Whatever you might think about the world's being evil I'm pretty sure that is not what is being portrayed in this version of the image, on the contrary. The would we knoe here is bright and ordered, and what is being seen outside the sublunary bubble is a series of almost incomprehensible cogs concentric circles which govern the passages of the planets.
Were I to guess the "wheel" is probably hoping to represent the epicycles which govern the retrograde motion of the planets.
As you may be aware, as the earth is NOT the centre of the universe as thought by the medieval world, the planets which appear through observation on successive days appear to go backwards. This was explained by Ptolemy and others with the use of epicycles, whereby the planet would leave its normal track (the circumpherence of their crystal sphere) and follow another circle whose centre was the crystal sphere it usually travelled along,
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:23 am What is most interesting about the outside of the bubble is that stuff is arranged in order.
Image

Yes. The outside of the bubble seems to be a good representation of order and flow and perfection -- impersonal to the human, and very different from the human world/perception. The inside of the bubble seems to be a good representation of vast creative and artful potential -- beautiful, with light and dark, and believably real.

To take this further, with my own perspective...

I do not imagine some one or some thing separate from us orchestrating all of this. Rather, the entire system of order and flow and creations and dreams is all part of the system (or complete energy) itself, which we are part of. Spirit/energy manifesting material worlds, which may require illusions of separation and borders and substance and being personal. The flow behind the display can (at times) appear to reveal glimpses of a much broader sense, order, and perfection. It need not be personified in limited human terms (which creates more illusion of separation). There are no reasons (other than perhaps comfort or control) to think that it all must be taken so completely personally at the human level.

What if we continued to embrace the experience of this "life manifestation" with the same love, joy, and openness that we were born into this world with? The bright eyes of a baby, taking it all in... assessing and exploring... willing to connect with everything else... without establishing and settling on a rigid position. :lol: Or, as a young child, knowing when we play a game! When we take ourselves and life too seriously (as we imagine adults must do), we really are convinced in, and limited by, illusion. The actual potential is always so much broader -- at least, that has been my experience/discovery. And that's inspiring! It's also a relief to live in the moment with what is, while exploring greater potential that can be, without feeling restricted or driven by limited human agendas and stories. There are so many ways to do everything: what will our creation be?
Belinda
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

Excepting your last paragraph, Lacewing ,I agree and appreciate the gentle way you describe it. However as to the prefect order of eternity I mus remain a hopeful agnostic.

Actually your last paragraph is fine too except a playful attitude is excellent for intellectula reasoning, however it is hard to be playful when faced with fears and sufferings.
seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:23 am What is most interesting about the outside of the bubble is that stuff is arranged in order. The details of the order is irrelevant.It is true that the details outside the bubble are repeated inside the bubble but what matters is that the details are ordered in a sequence or hierarchy outside the bubble . The wheels outside the bubble are a most important symbol of change which is ordered according to reason, unlike this terrible evil world we inhabit.
Belinda, that's an interesting interpretation of the image, and it seems to confirm what I suggested earlier in that the Flammarion engraving appears to be similar to a Rorschach inkblot test, wherein each person sees something a little different.

Furthermore, we can also see...

(as per the comments of a certain contributor to this debate)

...that a hardcore "materialistic mindset" can not only be just as blinkered and unbending as a "religious mindset," but, like the religious mindset, acts as a bias-based perceptual lens through-which one views and interprets reality.
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Belinda
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

seeds wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:08 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:23 am What is most interesting about the outside of the bubble is that stuff is arranged in order. The details of the order is irrelevant.It is true that the details outside the bubble are repeated inside the bubble but what matters is that the details are ordered in a sequence or hierarchy outside the bubble . The wheels outside the bubble are a most important symbol of change which is ordered according to reason, unlike this terrible evil world we inhabit.
Belinda, that's an interesting interpretation of the image, and it seems to confirm what I suggested earlier in that the Flammarion engraving appears to be similar to a Rorschach inkblot test, wherein each person sees something a little different.

Furthermore, we can also see...

(as per the comments of a certain contributor to this debate)

...that a hardcore "materialistic mindset" can not only be just as blinkered and unbending as a "religious mindset," but, like the religious mindset, acts as a bias-based perceptual lens through-which one views and interprets reality.
_______
I agree, Seeds. Each and every interpretation of anything at all is subjective. The Flammarion engraving is so mysterious that it's especially open to a variety of interpretations . Subjectivity is the only way for any individual to learn by, so that we can compare and contrast points of view. Religion tries to gather us all together into the one legitimate interpretation and that is why theocracies are repressive and conservative.

Some few people do not do symbolism at all.
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 pm a playful attitude is excellent for intellectula reasoning, however it is hard to be playful when faced with fears and sufferings.
True.

The extent of such feelings probably have a lot to do with one's philosophy or beliefs. If one thinks that all is in perfect order (ultimately), even though it might not appear so, it can eliminate some fear and suffering that might otherwise be there. This doesn't mean that suffering vanishes or that such a person loses compassion or understanding if they simply view the world in a different way. There can be a lot of love in humor.

The distress of someone who thinks that their world has ended in such limitation and darkness, can be contrasted with a loving friend who might see what more there is, or what could be beyond that for them. Perspective seems to have a lot to do with our suffering.
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bahman
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by bahman »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

How could humans at that time be thought to have more awareness and understanding than humans thousands of years later?

What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?

Is it because the mystery of the old material can be mysteriously used/applied to explain the mystery of existence that humans want to feel they can know and/or have protection from?
Spiritual reality is real. I have contact with Demons, Angels, dead peoples, etc. There are stories being told which are not real though.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:32 pm I have contact with Demons, Angels, dead peoples, etc.
That explains a lot more than you think. It's normally called Schizophrenia. There are medicines that help some with those problems Good luck.

If you find one that helps you might share it with Belinda, Lacewing, and Seeds. They seem to enjoy similar mental fantasies.
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

RCSaunders to bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:52 pm There are medicines that help some with those problems.

If you find one that helps you might share it with Belinda, Lacewing, and Seeds. They seem to enjoy similar mental fantasies.
Listen, you ignorant and arrogant old fuck...

:lol: :lol:

...that's all I need to say.
Belinda
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:43 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:39 pm a playful attitude is excellent for intellectula reasoning, however it is hard to be playful when faced with fears and sufferings.
True.

The extent of such feelings probably have a lot to do with one's philosophy or beliefs. If one thinks that all is in perfect order (ultimately), even though it might not appear so, it can eliminate some fear and suffering that might otherwise be there. This doesn't mean that suffering vanishes or that such a person loses compassion or understanding if they simply view the world in a different way. There can be a lot of love in humor.

The distress of someone who thinks that their world has ended in such limitation and darkness, can be contrasted with a loving friend who might see what more there is, or what could be beyond that for them. Perspective seems to have a lot to do with our suffering.
True. The only recourse for an agnostic is to pray "I would believe. Help thou mine unbelief."
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bahman
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by bahman »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:52 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:32 pm I have contact with Demons, Angels, dead peoples, etc.
That explains a lot more than you think. It's normally called Schizophrenia. There are medicines that help some with those problems Good luck.

If you find one that helps you might share it with Belinda, Lacewing, and Seeds. They seem to enjoy similar mental fantasies.
I analyzed my experiences to the best. I am talking about a coherent reality. What is your proof that something that merely you don't experience, necessary doesn't exist?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by RCSaunders »

bahman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:16 pm What is your proof ...
You are all the proof I need.
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