Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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attofishpi
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Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by attofishpi »

seeds wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:55 pm Image

If you look carefully at the Flammarion image, you can easily see that the earth, and the moon, and the sun, and the stars (and, presumably, the rest of the planets), are all represented by what resides on the "inside" of the bubble of reality that the dude is sticking his head outside of.

Whereas, on the other hand, the random and freaky looking scene on the outside of the bubble, bears very little resemblance to what's on the inside of the bubble.

...however (and again), the sun, and the moon, and the stars (and the planets, though not pictured), along with Aristotle's "celestial spheres" that separate them, are already accounted for on the interior of the bubble depicted in the Flammarion engraving...

Therefore, whatever it is that the dude is seeing on the outside of the bubble, it seems to exist above and outside of what you (and Aristotle) are calling the "sublunary" and "superlunary" realms.
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Absolutely.

Again, this image is dealing with the concept of a system within a system, a shell within a shell. It is concerned with ENTROPY.

I suggest whoever did the original engraving is a sage.

Look closely.

You have the 'paradise' of reality - ALL that we perceive to be real. Indeed ALL that we CAN perceive to be real.

But notice, the artist has the mans head outside of the norm of reality - he has eaten the red pill (Neo) he has eaten from the Tree of Know_Ledge.

On that outer shell (system) which provides the resources - for at least consciousness - BEYOND where man's body remains - with all its material requirements...on that outer shell - is portrayed CLOUDS and a man made object - WATER MILL. (which clouds of water ultimately provide energy for man).

In other words - the energy that provides the 'perfect' reality of the inner shell is provided by an outer shell - where mankind ONCE dwelled.

By the way, he has his 'staff' and the hand_le is on the upper system.

...well, that's eating from the Tree of Know_Ledge gets ya.

www.androcies.com

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Last edited by attofishpi on Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
seeds
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by seeds »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 am I suggest whoever did the original engraving is a sage.
Yes, a sage....

...Or,...

...perhaps it was some talented artist who accidently (or on purpose) cooked him up a mess of magic mushrooms for supper one night.

Indeed, as a side note, it has been suggested that the ingestion of plants containing entheogenic (psychoactive) substances may have been what triggered our ancient hominid (ape-like) ancestors into a higher level of consciousness.

Hence the Eden myth (to which you astutely alluded), wherein the eating of a certain something imparted "knowledge" to the eater.
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Lacewing
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 am he is looking at his hand
No... he's looking straight ahead.
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 ama hand that was once his right hand but now his left hand, he is totally contorted
No... his right hand is a right hand.
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 amhe is now perplexed at his left hand
Are you at all aware of the distortions and stories you create and make up?
Last edited by Lacewing on Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by Lacewing »

seeds wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:58 pm ...perhaps it was some talented artist who accidently (or on purpose) cooked him up a mess of magic mushrooms for supper one night.
Yep.
seeds wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:58 pmit has been suggested that the ingestion of plants containing entheogenic (psychoactive) substances may have been what triggered our ancient hominid (ape-like) ancestors into a higher level of consciousness.
Makes sense! Such a thing can indeed blow the doors completely open and off their hinges.

Perhaps there are no separate gods and sages for some people because (and based on the degree to which) they have experienced and embraced being part of all? When one experiences that there is nothing separate, it cannot be forgotten.
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by attofishpi »

seeds wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:58 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 am I suggest whoever did the original engraving is a sage.
Yes, a sage....

...Or,...

...perhaps it was some talented artist who accidently (or on purpose) cooked him up a mess of magic mushrooms for supper one night.

Indeed, as a side note, it has been suggested that the ingestion of plants containing entheogenic (psychoactive) substances may have been what triggered our ancient hominid (ape-like) ancestors into a higher level of consciousness.

Hence the Eden myth (to which you astutely alluded), wherein the eating of a certain something imparted "knowledge" to the eater.
_______
I think is was Terrence Mckenna that first suggested the psychoactive plot to man's eventual intelligence evolution. Plausible.

A really funny story he told to a small gathering - he stated that there had been a photo of a UFO that later was proven to be a fraud, because it was in fact an exact match for some model of vacuum cleaner.
He then says that he was out in the forest, probably tripping balls, and he looked up in the sky and saw this flying object - and it was the same model of vacuum cleaner - hilarious story.

From my experience, which i've got to be careful now that LW is around and she starts telling me I am deluded.. What Terrence saw was likely projected by the system we are in - it was having a laugh, taking the piss as it does.

I have seen UFOs - but I don't believe they exist - I know that sounds contradictory - but what I have witnessed since 1997, I am aware that this 3rd party intelligence can project anything to us - it is indeed as if we are brains in a vat.
The 1st time I saw this "UFO" - I was in a forest eating pizza, sat on the bonnet of my car. It was pitch dark, and I was looking up at the stars when I saw a shooting star, nothing strange, but then in exactly the same point in the sky, another shooting star - BUT - in precisely the opposite direction - i was like, WTF? - and then another shooting star, back to the original direction and in the same position in the sky. OK. weird, I thought it could be possible to see a shower - ALL in roughly the same direction, so this was illogical. A few minutes after that, this object appeared above me - strobing 3 white lights, zip-zip-zip - like 123,123,123 (1 above 2 and 2 above 3) - as it motioned across the sky where these shooting stars had appeared, this "UFO" - just gradually moved away into the distance. If you are interested in hearing the last "UFO" I saw, let me know - this one was only two years ago.
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by seeds »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:00 am
seeds wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:58 pm ...perhaps it was some talented artist who accidently (or on purpose) cooked him up a mess of magic mushrooms for supper one night.
Yep.
seeds wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:58 pmit has been suggested that the ingestion of plants containing entheogenic (psychoactive) substances may have been what triggered our ancient hominid (ape-like) ancestors into a higher level of consciousness.
Makes sense! Such a thing can indeed blow the doors completely open and off their hinges.

Perhaps there are no separate gods and sages for some people because (and based on the degree to which) they have experienced and embraced being part of all? When one experiences that there is nothing separate, it cannot be forgotten.
First, it's kind of funny how this little debate about the Flammarion engraving took on a life of its own.

Second, thanks for questioning atto's description of the Flammarion dude's hands. I was going to say something about that, but you're much better than me at breaking kneecaps around here. :D

And lastly, it may be true that we can experience that there is nothing separate, however, that simply does not explain how the unthinkable order of the universe came about.

Btw, in the other thread, when you said this about the Flammarion image,...
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:19 pm To me, the image represents reaching beyond whatever world we walk in, to whatever may be beyond that -- not leaving one for the other, but trying to be aware of both.
...it was a perfect response.
_______
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by seeds »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:10 am
seeds wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:58 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 am I suggest whoever did the original engraving is a sage.
Yes, a sage....

...Or,...

...perhaps it was some talented artist who accidently (or on purpose) cooked him up a mess of magic mushrooms for supper one night.

Indeed, as a side note, it has been suggested that the ingestion of plants containing entheogenic (psychoactive) substances may have been what triggered our ancient hominid (ape-like) ancestors into a higher level of consciousness.

Hence the Eden myth (to which you astutely alluded), wherein the eating of a certain something imparted "knowledge" to the eater.
_______
I think is was Terrence Mckenna that first suggested the psychoactive plot to man's eventual intelligence evolution. Plausible.
I love listening to Terence McKenna speak. Never a dull moment. I know we have his many recordings, nevertheless, it's a shame that he's no longer around (in the flesh) to share his eloquent promotion of cosmic thought.
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:10 am A really funny story he told to a small gathering - he stated that there had been a photo of a UFO that later was proven to be a fraud, because it was in fact an exact match for some model of vacuum cleaner.
He then says that he was out in the forest, probably tripping balls, and he looked up in the sky and saw this flying object - and it was the same model of vacuum cleaner - hilarious story.

From my experience, which i've got to be careful now that LW is around and she starts telling me I am deluded.. What Terrence saw was likely projected by the system we are in - it was having a laugh, taking the piss as it does.

I have seen UFOs - but I don't believe they exist - I know that sounds contradictory - but what I have witnessed since 1997, I am aware that this 3rd party intelligence can project anything to us - it is indeed as if we are brains in a vat.
The 1st time I saw this "UFO" - I was in a forest eating pizza, sat on the bonnet of my car. It was pitch dark, and I was looking up at the stars when I saw a shooting star, nothing strange, but then in exactly the same point in the sky, another shooting star - BUT - in precisely the opposite direction - i was like, WTF? - and then another shooting star, back to the original direction and in the same position in the sky. OK. weird, I thought it could be possible to see a shower - ALL in roughly the same direction, so this was illogical. A few minutes after that, this object appeared above me - strobing 3 white lights, zip-zip-zip - like 123,123,123 (1 above 2 and 2 above 3) - as it motioned across the sky where these shooting stars had appeared, this "UFO" - just gradually moved away into the distance. If you are interested in hearing the last "UFO" I saw, let me know - this one was only two years ago.
That's an interesting story, atto, and yes, I would like to hear about the last "UFO" you saw.
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:48 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 am he is looking at his hand
No... he's looking straight ahead.
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 ama hand that was once his right hand but now his left hand, he is totally contorted
No... his right hand is a right hand.
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 amhe is now perplexed at his left hand
Are you at all aware of the distortions and stories you create and make up?
Actually, regarding the hands and the head you are correct.

Regardless, neither of these points are the important factors about the picture - the man's, head, the clouds and the water mills on the outer shell are what is important to what I am stating. I will re-edit my original post.
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by Lacewing »

seeds wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:09 am First, it's kind of funny how this little debate about the Flammarion engraving took on a life of its own.
Yes! :lol:

Image

Here's what I just wrote in another thread... (please excuse the duplication)
Lacewing wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:13 pm The outside of the bubble seems to be a good representation of order and flow and perfection -- impersonal to the human, and very different from the human world/perception. The inside of the bubble seems to be a good representation of vast creative and artful potential -- beautiful, with light and dark, and believably real.

To take this further, with my own perspective...

I do not imagine some one or some thing separate from us orchestrating all of this. Rather, the entire system of order and flow and creations and dreams is all part of the system (or complete energy) itself, which we are part of. Spirit/energy manifesting material worlds, which may require illusions of separation and borders and substance and being personal. The flow behind the display can (at times) appear to reveal glimpses of a much broader sense, order, and perfection. It need not be personified in limited human terms (which creates more illusion of separation). There are no reasons (other than perhaps comfort or control) to think that it all must be taken so completely personally at the human level.

What if we continued to embrace the experience of this "life manifestation" with the same love, joy, and openness that we were born into this world with? The bright eyes of a baby, taking it all in... assessing and exploring... willing to connect with everything else... without establishing and settling on a rigid position. :lol: Or, as a young child, knowing when we play a game! When we take ourselves and life too seriously (as we imagine adults must do), we really are convinced in, and limited by, illusion. The actual potential is always so much broader -- at least, that has been my experience/discovery. And that's inspiring! It's also a relief to live in the moment with what is, while exploring greater potential that can be, without feeling restricted or driven by limited human agendas and stories. There are so many ways to do everything: what will our creation be?
I think this is why that image has always resonated with me. Like no other image I've seen, it seems to graphically depict what I think/feel.
seeds wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:09 amSecond, thanks for questioning atto's description of the Flammarion dude's hands. I was going to say something about that, but you're much better than me at breaking kneecaps around here. :D
:lol: :lol:

In general on this forum, the absurdity of some claims seem to merit an equally bold response, and it's fun to be rowdy online. In person I would be much more gentle and with obvious humor, or I wouldn't even engage at all. 8)
seeds wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:09 amAnd lastly, it may be true that we can experience that there is nothing separate, however, that simply does not explain how the unthinkable order of the universe came about.
If it's outside of human understanding of creation and death, and beginnings and endings, and order, etc., it's likely beyond human fathoming. I'm not sure it matters. I'm not sure it changes anything for us. You know? All we do is create stories with it. Maybe the point is to be free of such impossible/inapplicable questing... and paint freely with all the tools in front of us. ??
seeds wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:09 am Btw, in the other thread, when you said this about the Flammarion image,...
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:19 pm To me, the image represents reaching beyond whatever world we walk in, to whatever may be beyond that -- not leaving one for the other, but trying to be aware of both.
...it was a perfect response.
_______
Thank you. :)
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:10 am What Terrence saw was likely projected by the system we are in - it was having a laugh, taking the piss as it does.

I am aware that this 3rd party intelligence can project anything to us
So... you think a projection is going on. Some sort of separation between a projector and the viewer/receiver?

Why does there need to be any separate thing in order for such creations and games and jokes to arise from the system we are in? Listening to people, it appears that pretty much anything can appear or transpire... likely a result from one's own desires, fears, etc... very powerful creative potential throughout/across countless beings. Real/convincing in any given moment, yet capable of shifting and evolving. Seems too diverse for an agenda. :)
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:38 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:10 am What Terrence saw was likely projected by the system we are in - it was having a laugh, taking the piss as it does.

I am aware that this 3rd party intelligence can project anything to us
So... you think a projection is going on. Some sort of separation between a projector and the viewer/receiver?

Why does there need to be any separate thing in order for such creations and games and jokes to arise from the system we are in? Listening to people, it appears that pretty much anything can appear or transpire... likely a result from one's own desires, fears, etc... very powerful creative potential throughout/across countless beings. Real/convincing in any given moment, yet capable of shifting and evolving. Seems too diverse for an agenda. :)
What do you mean by 'agenda'?
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:58 pm
Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:38 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:10 am What Terrence saw was likely projected by the system we are in - it was having a laugh, taking the piss as it does.

I am aware that this 3rd party intelligence can project anything to us
So... you think a projection is going on. Some sort of separation between a projector and the viewer/receiver?

Why does there need to be any separate thing in order for such creations and games and jokes to arise from the system we are in? Listening to people, it appears that pretty much anything can appear or transpire... likely a result from one's own desires, fears, etc... very powerful creative potential throughout/across countless beings. Real/convincing in any given moment, yet capable of shifting and evolving. Seems too diverse for an agenda. :)
What do you mean by 'agenda'?
Whatever agenda a 3rd party intelligence (as you say) might have?
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:28 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:58 pm
Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:38 pm
So... you think a projection is going on. Some sort of separation between a projector and the viewer/receiver?

Why does there need to be any separate thing in order for such creations and games and jokes to arise from the system we are in? Listening to people, it appears that pretty much anything can appear or transpire... likely a result from one's own desires, fears, etc... very powerful creative potential throughout/across countless beings. Real/convincing in any given moment, yet capable of shifting and evolving. Seems too diverse for an agenda. :)
What do you mean by 'agenda'?
Whatever agenda a 3rd party intelligence (as you say) might have?
So am i correct in my interpretation that is our experience of reality that is too diverse to permit yourself from believing it plausible that there is this entity?
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:39 am
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:28 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:58 pm
What do you mean by 'agenda'?
Whatever agenda a 3rd party intelligence (as you say) might have?
So am i correct in my interpretation that is our experience of reality that is too diverse to permit yourself from believing it plausible that there is this entity?
What?

Why do you think there is something separate? Something from without projecting at you? Do you not consider projections from within?
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Re: Flammarion engraving - an engraving by a sage.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 am
attofishpi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:39 am
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:28 am
Whatever agenda a 3rd party intelligence (as you say) might have?
So am i correct in my interpretation that is our experience of reality that is too diverse to permit yourself from believing it plausible that there is this entity?
What?

Why do you think there is something separate? Something from without projecting at you? Do you not consider projections from within?
Of course, why ..what is your point?
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