Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:47 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:36 pm I'm not limited to your rigid definitions/interpretations...
Nah. You didn't even notice. It went right past you.
I noticed. It was unnecessarily rigid, ignoring everything else. You know: your usual.
seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:42 pm
seeds wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:06 pm
I truly believe that what lies on the other side of the veil portrayed in this classic image...

Image

...is so wonderful that it must be kept hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely.
_______
I'm pretty sure that this is a picture of the superlunary and sublunary realms.
In the pre-enlightenment world these ideas were common enough.
This is old fashioned science, to explain how planets stayed up in defiance of gravity; different laws of physics were thought to operate in the world above.
Well, seeing how the artist who created the Flammarion engraving is unknown, then it is simply impossible to say what the imagery actually meant to that person.

However, setting that aside, it's still a good visual aid for representing humanity's "...mystical quests for knowledge..." as was noted in the Wiki quote.

Also, in an earlier post you wondered if there was a history behind the Benny Hinn gif?

In which case, a quick Google search brought up a questionable sounding site called "ProsebeforeHos" which in an August 2, 2010 posting stated the following in regards to the Hinn video...
ProsebeforeHos wrote:
Televangelist Benny Hinn Cures People With Gods Jacket

Witness the almighty healing power of televangelist Benny Hinn (and his magic jacket)! Hinn claims to have the “anointing”, a special power given to him by God to heal the sick. At Hinn’s Miracle Crusades, he has allegedly healed attendees of blindness, deafness, cancer, AIDS, and severe physical injuries through his powers. Apparently these super-human powers extend to his jacket, which he uses as an instrument of God to cure the sick during his events.

Not surprisingly, Benny Hinn is also the founder of Benny Hinn Ministries, which through donations, tours, and a television show, brings in over $200 million a year. BHM was even deemed financially suspect and corrupt by Ministry Watch in 2006, after BHM asked for donations specifically towards a new Gulfstream G4SP jet for Benny Hinn (apparently Gods will extends to luxurious travel for his anointed ones). One can only hope that his custom-made healing jacket will bring him all the riches and jets in the world:
Now I am not here to pass judgment on the efficacy of Benny's healing jacket, however, I am definitely keen to point out that considering the personal net worth of certain preachers such as...
  • Benny Hinn: 60 million dollars
    Joel Osteen: 100 million dollars
    Kenneth Copeland: 300 million dollars
...just to name a few, then it is obvious that they must have some unique interpretation of the following Biblical warning that helps them to justify their personal fortunes:
Matthew 19:24 wrote: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
_______
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attofishpi
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by attofishpi »

seeds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:35 am
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:42 pm
seeds wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:06 pm
I truly believe that what lies on the other side of the veil portrayed in this classic image...

Image

...is so wonderful that it must be kept hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely.
_______
I'm pretty sure that this is a picture of the superlunary and sublunary realms.
In the pre-enlightenment world these ideas were common enough.
This is old fashioned science, to explain how planets stayed up in defiance of gravity; different laws of physics were thought to operate in the world above.
Well, seeing how the artist who created the Flammarion engraving is unknown, then it is simply impossible to say what the imagery actually meant to that person.
lol. It's the entropy game. A shell within a shell a system within a system, black 'stars' and all. The more upper s_hell - C_louds and the perpetual motion of what they release - water to the mill. M_ill.

Back to the topic of "religious" creeps in US - Joyce Meyer - THE JOKER...f**kin pretentious skank, as they all are, liars and hypocrites.

:twisted:
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Sculptor
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Sculptor »

seeds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:35 am
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:42 pm
seeds wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:06 pm
I truly believe that what lies on the other side of the veil portrayed in this classic image...

Image

...is so wonderful that it must be kept hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely.
_______
I'm pretty sure that this is a picture of the superlunary and sublunary realms.
In the pre-enlightenment world these ideas were common enough.
This is old fashioned science, to explain how planets stayed up in defiance of gravity; different laws of physics were thought to operate in the world above.
Well, seeing how the artist who created the Flammarion engraving is unknown, then it is simply impossible to say what the imagery actually meant to that person.
Not with utter certainty, but the imagery is pretty telling, given the content of the book it was desgined to illustrate.
.


However, setting that aside, it's still a good visual aid for representing humanity's "...mystical quests for knowledge..." as was noted in the Wiki quote.

Also, in an earlier post you wondered if there was a history behind the Benny Hinn gif?

In which case, a quick Google search brought up a questionable sounding site called "ProsebeforeHos" which in an August 2, 2010 posting stated the following in regards to the Hinn video...
ProsebeforeHos wrote:
Televangelist Benny Hinn Cures People With Gods Jacket

Witness the almighty healing power of televangelist Benny Hinn (and his magic jacket)! Hinn claims to have the “anointing”, a special power given to him by God to heal the sick. At Hinn’s Miracle Crusades, he has allegedly healed attendees of blindness, deafness, cancer, AIDS, and severe physical injuries through his powers. Apparently these super-human powers extend to his jacket, which he uses as an instrument of God to cure the sick during his events.

Not surprisingly, Benny Hinn is also the founder of Benny Hinn Ministries, which through donations, tours, and a television show, brings in over $200 million a year. BHM was even deemed financially suspect and corrupt by Ministry Watch in 2006, after BHM asked for donations specifically towards a new Gulfstream G4SP jet for Benny Hinn (apparently Gods will extends to luxurious travel for his anointed ones). One can only hope that his custom-made healing jacket will bring him all the riches and jets in the world:
Now I am not here to pass judgment on the efficacy of Benny's healing jacket, however, I am definitely keen to point out that considering the personal net worth of certain preachers such as...
  • Benny Hinn: 60 million dollars
    Joel Osteen: 100 million dollars
    Kenneth Copeland: 300 million dollars
...just to name a few, then it is obvious that they must have some unique interpretation of the following Biblical warning that helps them to justify their personal fortunes:
Matthew 19:24 wrote: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
_______
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Sculptor
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Sculptor »

seeds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:35 am
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:42 pm
seeds wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:06 pm
I truly believe that what lies on the other side of the veil portrayed in this classic image...

Image

...is so wonderful that it must be kept hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely.
_______
I'm pretty sure that this is a picture of the superlunary and sublunary realms.
In the pre-enlightenment world these ideas were common enough.
This is old fashioned science, to explain how planets stayed up in defiance of gravity; different laws of physics were thought to operate in the world above.
Well, seeing how the artist who created the Flammarion engraving is unknown, then it is simply impossible to say what the imagery actually meant to that person.
Not with utter certainty, but the imagery is pretty telling, given the content of the book it was desgined to illustrate.
.


However, setting that aside, it's still a good visual aid for representing humanity's "...mystical quests for knowledge..." as was noted in the Wiki quote.

Also, in an earlier post you wondered if there was a history behind the Benny Hinn gif?

In which case, a quick Google search brought up a questionable sounding site called "ProsebeforeHos" which in an August 2, 2010 posting stated the following in regards to the Hinn video...
ProsebeforeHos wrote:
Televangelist Benny Hinn Cures People With Gods Jacket

Witness the almighty healing power of televangelist Benny Hinn (and his magic jacket)! Hinn claims to have the “anointing”, a special power given to him by God to heal the sick. At Hinn’s Miracle Crusades, he has allegedly healed attendees of blindness, deafness, cancer, AIDS, and severe physical injuries through his powers. Apparently these super-human powers extend to his jacket, which he uses as an instrument of God to cure the sick during his events.

Not surprisingly, Benny Hinn is also the founder of Benny Hinn Ministries, which through donations, tours, and a television show, brings in over $200 million a year. BHM was even deemed financially suspect and corrupt by Ministry Watch in 2006, after BHM asked for donations specifically towards a new Gulfstream G4SP jet for Benny Hinn (apparently Gods will extends to luxurious travel for his anointed ones). One can only hope that his custom-made healing jacket will bring him all the riches and jets in the world:
Now I am not here to pass judgment on the efficacy of Benny's healing jacket, however, I am definitely keen to point out that considering the personal net worth of certain preachers such as...
  • Benny Hinn: 60 million dollars
    Joel Osteen: 100 million dollars
    Kenneth Copeland: 300 million dollars
...just to name a few, then it is obvious that they must have some unique interpretation of the following Biblical warning that helps them to justify their personal fortunes:
Matthew 19:24 wrote: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
_______
seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:35 am Well, seeing how the artist who created the Flammarion engraving is unknown, then it is simply impossible to say what the imagery actually meant to that person.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:47 am Not with utter certainty, but the imagery is pretty telling, given the content of the book it was desgined to illustrate.
Based on the way that you, and me, and Lacewing, and attofishpi interpret the image, it seems obvious that the Flammarion engraving can be likened to a Rorschach inkblot test, wherein different people will see something different depending on one's psychology and mental trappings.

But like I suggested earlier, regardless of what the "unknown" artist was attempting to express with the imagery, it still makes for a good visualization aid to pair with certain metaphysical ideas.
_______
seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:30 am lol. It's the entropy game. A shell within a shell a system within a system, black 'stars' and all. The more upper s_hell - C_louds and the perpetual motion of what they release - water to the mill. M_ill.
I highly doubt that the "black stars" in the Flammarion engraving...

Image

...hold any significant meaning, and are simply the artist using them for filler and contrast.

Indeed, I use black stars in one of my own illustrations...

Image

Also, I would like to point out that the all-encompassing "rind wall" in the image above is simply my own version of the bubble-like film ("veil") that encompasses the illusion of the material world depicted in the Flammarion engraving.

In fact, in one of my fanciful illustrations, there's an image of me pressing against the veil that separates the interior of the universe from what I call "true reality"...

Image
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Sculptor
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Sculptor »

seeds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:35 pm
seeds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:35 am Well, seeing how the artist who created the Flammarion engraving is unknown, then it is simply impossible to say what the imagery actually meant to that person.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:47 am Not with utter certainty, but the imagery is pretty telling, given the content of the book it was desgined to illustrate.
Based on the way that you, and me, and Lacewing, and attofishpi interpret the image, it seems obvious that the Flammarion engraving can be likened to a Rorschach inkblot test, wherein different people will see something different depending on one's psychology and mental trappings.

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No I disagree.
The entry about the book in Wiki, that the image first appears in, is exactly what I was talking about - that the earth and celestial spheres are discrete and separate.
I've studied the history of cosmology - this is a no brainer.
seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:35 pm Based on the way that you, and me, and Lacewing, and attofishpi interpret the image, it seems obvious that the Flammarion engraving can be likened to a Rorschach inkblot test, wherein different people will see something different depending on one's psychology and mental trappings.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:13 pm No I disagree.
The entry about the book in Wiki, that the image first appears in, is exactly what I was talking about - that the earth and celestial spheres are discrete and separate.
I've studied the history of cosmology - this is a no brainer.
Firstly, just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you are referring to when you say "celestial spheres"?

And secondly, the Wiki entry about Flammarion's book also states the following about the image...
Wiki wrote: It has been used as a metaphorical illustration of either the scientific...
...which is what you are referring to...
Wiki wrote: ...or the mystical quests for knowledge.
Now in case you can't figure it out, the second half of that quote, where it states that the image has been used as an illustration of "mystical" quests, is what matters to me.

So with that in mind, please try to understand this - once and for all - that I DON'T CARE what the image was originally used for, because, to me, the Flammarion engraving is simply a very cool and spacey visualization tool that helps to express certain metaphysical (mystical) concepts.
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Sculptor
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Sculptor »

seeds wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:04 am
seeds wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:35 pm Based on the way that you, and me, and Lacewing, and attofishpi interpret the image, it seems obvious that the Flammarion engraving can be likened to a Rorschach inkblot test, wherein different people will see something different depending on one's psychology and mental trappings.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:13 pm No I disagree.
The entry about the book in Wiki, that the image first appears in, is exactly what I was talking about - that the earth and celestial spheres are discrete and separate.
I've studied the history of cosmology - this is a no brainer.
Firstly, just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you are referring to when you say "celestial spheres"?

And secondly, the Wiki entry about Flammarion's book also states the following about the image...
Wiki wrote: It has been used as a metaphorical illustration of either the scientific...
...which is what you are referring to...
It has been used SUBSEQUENTLY.
Wiki wrote: ...or the mystical quests for knowledge.
Now in case you can't figure it out, the second half of that quote, where it states that the image has been used as an illustration of "mystical" quests, is what matters to me.

So with that in mind, please try to understand this - once and for all - that I DON'T CARE what the image was originally used for, because, to me, the Flammarion engraving is simply a very cool and spacey visualization tool that helps to express certain metaphysical (mystical) concepts.
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If you look up Sublunary, and celestial spheres, and superlunary you will find that the clear division in the image between the world beneath the moon, literally sublunary, and the celestial realm is made clear and obvious.

Here it is in BRIEF. Don't criticise me for fine details: i am covering an epoch years in about 400 words.

From the time of Aristotle it was thought that the world above, ran on a different system of celestial physics, to the more earthly one. The idea immediately answered why the moon stayed in the sky rather than fell to earth as it was literally bouyed up with crystal spheres, as were the rest of the heavenly bodies. You can actually see the planets following their tracks in the spheres in the image.
This idea was not restricted to ancient time, and was not absolutely beleived. The ancient world was more capable of accomodating various cosmologies. But eventually won out by the time of Ptolemy.
Further to that the Catholic Church decided to make Aristotle and his theories religuous dogma, and imposed the idea on the whole of Europe. It was not really until Copurnicus began to challenge the dogma.
Copurnicus' theory was, however more clumsy than Ptolemy's and got no traction.
Galileo was the first to suggest that the universe was not as it seemed and as the idea that the earth might not be the centre of the universe Kepler in combination with Newton, offered the last blow to the geocentric hypotheses by offering elipses to smash the crystals and the geocentric hypothesis for all time, to be replaced with gravity and "action at a distance", with the sun in the centre of the unviverse - heresy to the traditional church throughout Europe.


I do not care if you want to see the picture as just ART and ignore the meaning. I thought it would be of some interest to say what the meaning was.
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Sculptor
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Sculptor »

Back on Topic:

THe first minute of this video is a good example of the religous mindset from one of Christianity's greatest writers; Cardinal Newman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pmArHBW9ns

enjoy!
seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:04 am Firstly, just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you are referring to when you say "celestial spheres"?
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:07 am If you look up Sublunary, and celestial spheres, and superlunary you will find that the clear division in the image between the world beneath the moon, literally sublunary, and the celestial realm is made clear and obvious.

Here it is in BRIEF. Don't criticise me for fine details: i am covering an epoch years in about 400 words.

From the time of Aristotle it was thought that the world above, ran on a different system of celestial physics, to the more earthly one. The idea immediately answered why the moon stayed in the sky rather than fell to earth as it was literally bouyed up with crystal spheres, as were the rest of the heavenly bodies. You can actually see the planets following their tracks in the spheres in the image....
If you look carefully at the Flammarion image, you can easily see that the earth, and the moon, and the sun, and the stars (and, presumably, the rest of the planets), are all represented by what resides on the "inside" of the bubble of reality that the dude is sticking his head outside of.

Whereas, on the other hand, the random and freaky looking scene on the outside of the bubble, bears very little resemblance to what's on the inside of the bubble.

I get it that you think that the stratified-looking stuff on the outside of the bubble might be a representation of Aristotle's concentric spheres that were alleged to support and separate the celestial bodies back in days of yore (as is depicted in the following image),...

Image

...however (and again), the sun, and the moon, and the stars (and the planets, though not pictured), along with Aristotle's "celestial spheres" that separate them, are already accounted for on the interior of the bubble depicted in the Flammarion engraving...

Image

Therefore, whatever it is that the dude is seeing on the outside of the bubble, it seems to exist above and outside of what you (and Aristotle) are calling the "sublunary" and "superlunary" realms.
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Sculptor
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Sculptor »

seeds wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:55 pm
seeds wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:04 am Firstly, just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you are referring to when you say "celestial spheres"?
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:07 am If you look up Sublunary, and celestial spheres, and superlunary you will find that the clear division in the image between the world beneath the moon, literally sublunary, and the celestial realm is made clear and obvious.

Here it is in BRIEF. Don't criticise me for fine details: i am covering an epoch years in about 400 words.

From the time of Aristotle it was thought that the world above, ran on a different system of celestial physics, to the more earthly one. The idea immediately answered why the moon stayed in the sky rather than fell to earth as it was literally bouyed up with crystal spheres, as were the rest of the heavenly bodies. You can actually see the planets following their tracks in the spheres in the image....
If you look carefully at the Flammarion image, you can easily see that the earth, and the moon, and the sun, and the stars (and, presumably, the rest of the planets), are all represented by what resides on the "inside" of the bubble of reality that the dude is sticking his head outside of.

Whereas, on the other hand, the random and freaky looking scene on the outside of the bubble, bears very little resemblance to what's on the inside of the bubble.

I get it that you think that the stratified-looking stuff on the outside of the bubble might be a representation of Aristotle's concentric spheres that were alleged to support and separate the celestial bodies back in days of yore (as is depicted in the following image),...

Image

...however (and again), the sun, and the moon, and the stars (and the planets, though not pictured), along with Aristotle's "celestial spheres" that separate them, are already accounted for on the interior of the bubble depicted in the Flammarion engraving...

Image

Therefore, whatever it is that the dude is seeing on the outside of the bubble, it seems to exist above and outside of what you (and Aristotle) are calling the "sublunary" and "superlunary" realms.
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You are dead wrong.
This whole thing is off topic.
I have no interest in taking it further.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:59 pm
gaffo wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:54 am ...you and veg are the same.
Well, I don't know if Veg will be happy about that...but if you say so, I guess. I can't imagine how. :lol:
...in effect you say "fuck me"
Actually, you'll find I never say that, or anything like that. I simply declined a topic in which I had no particular interest. That's not personal. It's just what people do.

You might find you're wildly overreacting.
and you're not exactly lucid when you're under the influence
ya when im drunk i wish to talk to others - when sober i don't give a shit about anyone nor talking to others.
It's just an observation...and it's true for everyone, so it's not personal. Nobody's sharper drunk than sober.

So relax. You're not being criticized or attacked.

But it's an interesting revelation. I remember being told that all alcohol does is drop inhibitions...that it doesn't actually change will or add new inclinations. So that would suggest you actually maybe want to talk, but are too anxious without the aid of the alcohol.

Is that right? Is that how you actually feel about it?
so without me being drunk i would never have talked to you
That's also interesting.

I'm not at all drunk, and I would talk to you. I am, in fact.

I think you'll find you've misunderstood. But it may be hard to convince you of that, if, as you say, the only time when you feel you want to communicate is when you're under the influence, but it's true.

If you wish to go, of course you can. But I'm not asking you to.
all you said above is true. when sober i wish to talk - but beign an introvert i'm ok with "not botheirn" since most folks today do not actually think.

alcohol lower the inhabition - for me that means to lower the "Effort" of logging in here - for i know the effort of talking to folks that do not think (i know you are a thinker - but baised agains atheists - but still a man that thinks) is not worth it per this forum. - after drunk my judgment slips and thibk "maybe there are some persons thank think on this forum - when sober i think - nope.

BTW i know you are a good man, and not happy about insulting you - but you know when i come here there are two factors

1. primary is when i am here i am drunk (that means i become emotional - i am the same man i am when sober however - per topics, and willing to discuss topics with others that have minds - too few sem to though sadly - have minds)

2. my new TV via last yar is 4k so all texts now is so small that i tire of geting up from my vouch to edited my piss poor spellings - so my posts seem illegible for thre factors.

I'm dylexic - though very minld and the lest of the 3, then drunk, then my TV - in the order.


I did not liker you insulting me via me being a drunk - nor did i like insulting you back for your insult per me.

i noted you not insulting me for insulting you for insulting me - so that dos your character credit (and forced me to look inward upon my character (and yes i am drunk now - which is just a truth serum so your honouralbe reply to me makes me self reflect on my prior post - while noting under the iinfluence i lack the "editing" i would otherwise - and editing is a false affect, the honest one is no editing so the real person is the one drunk - imo).

anyway, i'm ok with cleaning the slate, and to converse.


is there something you wish to talk about? if so i'd like to partake in that discussion.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:50 pm BTW i ...not happy about insulting you...
I know. That's why I'm not upset. I know you don't mean it personally.
I did not liker you insulting me via me being a drunk
I wasn't insulting you, actually. I was just pointing out that neither you, nor I, nor anybody else becomes easier to understand when we're plastered. I was just reporting a fact, not making a personal judgment.
anyway, i'm ok with cleaning the slate, and to converse.
As I say, I'm not upset. You and I have history: we can put up with a bit from each other, yes?
is there something you wish to talk about? if so i'd like to partake in that discussion.
At the moment, nothing in particular. But I'm fine with picking a new topic.
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